HC Deb 29 June 1875 vol 225 cc740-2
LORD ELCHO

, before putting the Questions of which he had given Notice, said, that an important statement had been made by the Commander-in-Chief at a dinner at the Mansion House on the 12th of June. His Royal Highness said— We hear a great deal about reserves, and no doubt that is a great point to be attained; but I would like to see the reserves before me. I am told—in fact I know from the position I occupy, that we have a great many reserves on paper. But I should like to see them before me; I should like to see our reserves brought out with the regiments, so that we may see whether they exist and are efficient. He (Lord Elcho) had heard that only 20 men of the Army Reserve had answered the invitation out of 7,000 men to whom it had been addressed. With regard to the second Question, the Autumn Manœuvres had already begun, and it was therefore out of date; but the Secretary of State might act upon it next year. It would conduce very much to accurate information as to the state of the 19,000 men at Aldershot if the House could have brigade states daily, because they gave information which could not be derived from field states. It was important to know what number of men started, and to know how many were incapable from various causes of going on with the Manœuvres, so that the House might judge of the physical efficiency of these men. The noble Lord concluded by asking the Secretary of State for War, Whether an invitation has been addressed to the men of the Army Reserve to attend the coming Manœuvres; whether in reply to this invitation very few acceptances have been received; whether the War Office purposes taking any steps to ensure the attendance of the Reserve men at the Manœuvres, and thus enable His Royal Highness the Field Marshal Commanding in Chief "to see whether the Reserves exist and are efficient;" and, whether the coming manœuvres will be so conducted as regards the equipment and marching of the troops as to test the physical fitness of the men to endure the ordinary fatigues of active service?

COLONEL MURE

said, that a state which had been issued the other day of troops engaged in the Autumn Manœuvres did not give the information which was sought. It showed the number of the men which the regiments were deficient from medical causes, but not the deficiency which occurred in consequence of the men being too young to enter upon the Manœuvres. In the Army Medical Report last issued, readers were distinctly warned not to be guided in forming an opinion as to the physical qualities of the troops employed in the Autumn Manœuvres by statistics of the health of those present, which were undoubtedly satisfactory, because the troops engaged were "picked and healthy men." These were the very words used and were very significant. In the case of regiments returned from foreign service, some of them were tolerably strong; but where the regiment was largely composed of young and weak men the elimination was so great that those who remained might be said to represent a picked body of men. He hoped that the brigade states would be supplied, and that next year they would furnish full information both as to the troops with the colours and also as to the state of the Army Reserves.

MR. GATHORNE HARDY

said, he would not enter upon a discussion, but would confine himself to answering the Questions of the noble Lord. In the first place, invitations had not been addressed to the men of the Army Reserve generally, but had been addressed to three districts only. No doubt, very few had responded; but it was not correct to say that only 20 out of 7,000 had responded. The number who had responded was 114; but he could not state the exact number of the reserved men in those districts. From the answers to this invitation it appeared that many of them were in good employment and in receipt of good wages. They did not wish to attend the Autumn Manœuvres; but they were perfectly ready to respond if called out for the 12 days' training to which they were liable. He was not aware that the Field-Marshal Commanding-in-Chief wished to find these men at the Autumn Manœuvres or at the summer drills; but he desired to know that they existed and would come forward at the proper time. He was equally anxious that the existence of these men should be ascertained. As to their efficiency there could be no doubt. It had been established to the full extent because they had been so long in the Re gular Army. Whether, however, they should be brought away from their employment to take part in the operations of the Regular Army in the Autumn Manœuvres was a matter for consideration. As for the efficiency of the Manœuvres in testing physical fitness, the hon. and gallant Colonel opposite (Sir Henry Havelock) would no doubt have observed yesterday that the men were in full marching order, and he might state that to-day one of the Divisions was to march in the same order a distance of 17 or 18 miles to their encampment. When so much complaint was made about the young soldiers the noble Lord must not be too sure that it was the young soldiers who always fell out, because it was often the old soldiers who had seen considerable service. Sir Thomas Steele assured him yesterday that the young soldiers were very efficient indeed, and that they seemed to be fit for very heavy duty; and he animadverted rather strongly on the attempts which had been made to throw discredit on them. With respect to the strength of the regiments, there was a field state showing the full strength of the regiments yesterday and the number absent from them, and it would be perfectly easy to lay that statement before the House. But it was not simply by figures that a fair decision in such matters could be arrived at. It was necessary to have some amount of detail as to the causes of the men's absence. Without such data it was unfair to assume that men who might be absent from their regiments were young men unfit for duty. They must remember that men reported as unfit for duty might not actually be so. On one occasion, when a considerable number of men in a particular regiment were stated to be unfit for duty, it was discovered that a large proportion of them were fit for duty, and that of the remainder the majority were older men.

LORD ELCHO

Do not the brigade states give the necessary information?

MR. GATHORNE HARDY

To a certain extent, but not in full detail; but he would see what could be done.

Main Question, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair," put, and agreed to.