HC Deb 25 June 1875 vol 225 cc624-9

(3.) £25,201, to complete the sum for the Charity Commission (including Endowed Schools Department).

(4.) £15,083, to complete the sum for the Civil Service Commission.

(5.) £13,904, to complete the sum for the Copyhold, Inclosure, and Tithe Commission.

(6.) £6,500, to complete the sum for the Inclosure and Drainage Acts Imprest Expenses.

(7.) £34,125, to complete the sum for the Exchequer and Audit Department.

MR. GOLDSMID

said, that if he were correctly informed there was a very large expenditure in the office of Works—namely, that for Palace furniture—which did not come under the control of the Audit Department, and asked whether, if such were the ease, it would not be advisable to have a real and not an imaginary audit? The whole expenditure of the country ought to come under the same system of audit.

MR. W. H. SMITH

said, he was surprised to find that the hon. Member for Rochester was under the impression that the accounts of the Board of Works were not audited, because in point of fact they were subjected to a very minute and careful audit. He was far from depreciating the care and authority of the auditor, because, unless his duty was most effectively exercised, the audit would lapse into a mere farce. There was therefore an earnest desire on the part of the Chancellor of the Exchequer and himself to do everything they could to make the accounting for public funds as perfect as possible.

MR. GOLDSMID

thought the hon. Gentleman did not give any explanation on one part of the question he asked. According to previous arrangements the Chief Commissioner of Works was constituted the auditor of the accounts of the Board of Works, but now it was transferred to the Secretary; so that, in point of fact, the spending officer was the auditor of his own accounts. Therefore, he maintained that the new arrangement was very unsatisfactory.

MR. SOLATER-BOOTH

said, he was Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee at the time the change alluded to was made. The hon. Member for Rochester was mistaken when he attempted to draw a distinction in every Department between the spending and the accounting officer. It would, he believed, be found that there was no such distinction. The Committee recommended that the Treasury should look through the whole of the Civil Service, and appoint a civil servant of the highest class to be the accountant of each Department. It did not occur to them that the political chief of a Department was a proper accounting officer.

MR. GOLDSMID

expressed himself still dissatisfied with the explanations given.

MR. W. H. SMITH

said, that the accounting officer had to satisfy the Controller and the Auditor General and the Public Accounts Committee that the expenditure had been properly incurred.

GENERAL Sir GEORGE BALFOUR

urged that the present arrangement in regard to appointing the Secretary and Senior Assistant as the special accountant of the expenditure of the Chief Commissioner of Works, was objectionable, and that at the Office of Works they had a wrong officer to account for the money. It was not so with regard to the Board of Trade, and other offices; the head of the Department was the accountant, and the proper one for all expenditure; where the duties were onerous, as in the case of some offices, then a subordinate officer was selected to account for the money. The Works Department, on the contrary, had the officer appointed for this duty, who was specially charged with the duty of aiding the Chief Commissioner to look after the proper outlay of all public monies, but by being made the accountant, he had conflicting functions to perform of having one day to advise, and the next day, to see to the propriety of the expenditure.

MR. WHITWELL

called attention to the increase in the Vote for the second section of the second-class clerks of the directing branch from £2,905 to £4,895.

MR. W. H. SMITH

said, he had noticed the discrepancy, but it arose from the higher amount paid to those in that department.

MR. BUTT

called the Chancellor of the Exchequer's attention to the fact that, owing probably to inadvertence in drawing the Act for the abolition of the Commission of Audit and the appointment of a Controller and an Auditor General, the accounts of certain local bodies which were formerly audited by the Commission now might undergo no audit at all.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said, that when the new system was established, the functions of the Controller and the Auditor General were confined to public accounts and such accounts as the Treasury might specially direct to be audited. In consequence of that there might be local bodies which had slipped out of audit altogether; and he agreed with the hon. and learned Gentleman that it was exceedingly desirable that some provision whould be made for the audit of local accounts.

Vote agreed to.

(8.) £2,198, to complete the sum for the Registrars of Friendly Societies.

LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISH

inquired whether any alteration would be made in the amount of the Vote, in consequence of the Friendly Societies Bill if it passed into law?

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

thought it was not probable that any change would be made in the Vote.

MR. MELDON

wished to know upon what principle the Registrar of Friendly Societies in Ireland, who received £150 a-year salary for his services, also received an allowance of £100 a-year for a clerk? He should also like to know whether he produced any voucher for the £100 a-year alleged to be so paid?

MR. SULLIVAN

Some of us happen to know that these offices are farmed out.

MR. W. H. SMITH

I should be exceedingly happy to get any information from hon. Members that would enable the Treasury to reduce the charge.

MR. BUTT

I am bound to say that the gentleman who fills the office of Registrar to Friendly Societies in Ireland would be the last man who would be guilty of playing any trick upon the Treasury. He is a gentleman who fills the office with credit, and in a very honest, honourable, and conscientious manner.

GENERAL SIR GEORGE BALFOUR

pointed out how the account could be checked, by merely seeing whether the allowance was actually paid away on a voucher signed by the clerk, employed by the registrar, or whether it was a personal allowance paid to the registrar on his own signature, leaving to him the responsibility for having the clerical labours performed in the way most ecconomical and convenient to himself.

MR. MELDON

repeated his question how it was that the registrar who was paid £150 a-year for the performance of his duties put down an allowance of £100 a-year additional for his clerk.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXOHEQUER

I do not know in what way the Registrar in Ireland arranges; but this I do know—that it is true that the Registrar performs his duties in a very efficient and satisfactory manner, and that he is a very able man.

Vote agreed to.

(9.) £521,529, to complete the sum for the Local Government Board.

MR. DILLWYN

asked for an explanation of the sum of £2,000 paid to the medical officer?

MR. GOLDSMID

inquired how it was that there was a decrease of £730 in the salaries of Inspectors of Workhouse Schools, a most meritorious class of public servants?

MR. SCLATER-BOOTH

said, that the medical officer of the Local Government Board was under the control and order of that Board. A salary of £2,000 a-year was secured to him by Act of Parliament, he having enjoyed that as medical officer to the Privy Council, and a further sum of £2,000 a-year was assigned to him for the pursuit of scientific inquiries. The medical officer had some functions in connection with the Privy Council in regard to any cases which might arise in the administration of the Medical Act, which came under the purview of that body. The reason of the decrease referred to by the hon. Member for Rochester was, that two Inspectors who were in receipt of the higher scale of salaries had left during the year, and their places had been filled by Inspectors whose initial salaries were considerably lower.

Vote agreed to.

(10.) £11,304, to complete the sum for the Lunacy Commission.

(11.) £40,550, to complete the sum for the Mint.

SIR WILLIAM FRASER

asked for information in reference to the state of affairs in that Department, and complained of the designs of the coinage. He also called attention to the report of the deputy master that the machinery of the Mint was inefficient.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said, he thought he ought to say a few words about the condition of the Mint. There was no doubt whatever that the present machinery of the Mint was not in a very satisfactory state, and he believed that nothing but a complete renewal of the machinery would meet the exigencies of the case. The deputy master was of opinion that it would be impossible to make the necessary alterations on the present site, and that they ought to provide a new site, with a new Mint containing a new machinery of a proper character. If that were done, no doubt the present site could be disposed of and a considerable sum realized. Objection had been taken by the lawyers to the selection of a site in the neighbourhood of Blackfriars, but no refining would be done there, and therefore no nuisance would be created. However, as the objection had been raised, he had been considering the practicability of securing a suitable site elsewhere. He had made inquiries with reference to a suitable site, but was not at present in a position to indicate the spot which might be chosen, as he did not know the amount for which the land might be purchased.

MR. ANDERSON

trusted the right hon. Gentleman had found a site which would not be too expensive, and that it would be properly protected.

Vote agreed to.

(12.) £12,780, to complete the sum for the National Debt Office.

(13.) £16,650, to complete the sum for the Patent Office.

(14.) £17,161, to complete the sum for the Paymaster General's Office.

(15.) £17,270, to complete the sum for the Public Record Office.

(16.) £3,799, to complete the sum for the Public Works Loan Commission.

(17.) £33,901, to complete the sum for the General Registrar's Office in England.

House resumed.

Resolutions to be reported upon. Monday next;

Committee to sit again upon Monday next.