§ Bill, as amended, considered.
304§ Clause 4 (Definitions).
§ THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERmoved, in page 2, after line 4, to insert—
'"1. Industrial Assurance Company' means any Company, as defined by 'The Life Assurance Companies Act, 1870,' which grants assurances on any one life for a less sum than twenty pounds, and which receives premiums or contributions in Great Britain or Ireland, by means of collectors, at less periodical intervals than two months.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clause 8 (Classes of societies).
§ MR. ESTCOURTmoved, in page 4, line 19, to leave out "thirty," and insert "fifty," the effect of this being to allow the Societies to grant annuities up to £50. He pointed out that £50 was not now of the value it was some years ago, and that in granting the Societies this extension they were meeting only the necessities of the case. Besides, the Post Office did grant annuities up to £50.
§ Amendment proposed, in page 4, line 19, to leave out the word "thirty," and insert the word "fifty,"—(Mr. Estcourt,)—instead thereof.
§ SIR GEORGE JENKINSONthought that £30 would be too narrow a limit, and therefore he hoped that there would be some extension of it.
§ THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsympathized with both his hon. Friends in their desire to extend the benefits of the Friendly Societies; but the limit must be drawn somewhere, and, after all, this legislation was of an exceptional character. Special privileges were granted to these Societies for the benefit of a particular class of the community, and they must take care that they did not extend this special legislation further than was absolutely necessary for the purpose in view. The limit had been found generally to be convenient, and though, no doubt, some Societies would wish to extend their limits, yet he thought that, upon the whole, it would be unwise to break the limits that Parliament had already fixed. The object of this Bill was not to create a new class of Societies, but to regulate existing Societies. They also should be careful lest they trenched upon the business of Insurance Companies. He could not accept the Amendment.
§ Question, "That the word 'thirty' stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.
§ Clause 10 (The registry office).
§ MR. MELDONmoved, in page 5, line 9, after "registrar," to insert "and the assistant registrar for Ireland." He said, as the Bill was originally framed, the Assistant Registrar for Ireland was merely an Assistant of the Registrar for England. When in Committee upon the Bill, however, the Chancellor of the Exchequer made some concessions, and made the Assistant Registrar in Ireland the Irish Registrar, and granted an appeal to the Courts of Ireland. The Assistant Registrar had, therefore, important duties, and he proposed that he should be a barrister of not less than 20 years' standing. That would put him in the same position as the English Registrar, and he considered they ought both to be put upon the same footing.
§ Amendment proposed, in page 5, line 9, after the word "registrar," to insert the words "and the assistant registrar for Ireland."—(Mr. Meldon.)
§ THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, he thought great inconvenience would be caused if the Amendment was adopted. It would be inconvenient to cut themselves off from the chance of appointing to the office of Assistant Registrar in Ireland a gentleman who was a solicitor. He did not think it was quite reasonable that the hon. and learned Gentleman should insist that in every particular the Registrar and Assistant Registrar should be placed upon an absolute equality.
§ SIR JOSEPH M'KENNAquite agreed with the observations of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and hoped the Amendment would be withdrawn.
§ Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and negatived.
§ MR. MELDONmoved, in page 7, line 3, at end to add the following sub-section:—
10. All notices, requisitions, certificates, acknowledgments, returns, and documents which by this Act are required to be served, made, given, furnished upon, by, or to the central office or chief registrar shall, in the case of Societies registered in Ireland, be served, made, given, and furnished to the Assistant Registrar for Ireland.
§ THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, he thought it better that this matter should be relegated to the Treasury. The matter was purely one of procedure, and could best be determined by the Treasury.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Clause agreed to.
§ Clause 11 (Registry of societies).
§ THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERmoved, in page 7, sub-section 4, line 20, after "thereof," to insert—
If the rules thereof contain distinct provision for meeting all claims upon the Society existing at the time of division, before any such division takes place.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clause 12 (Cancelling and suspension of registry).
§ MR. MELDONmoved, in page 8, line 23, after "registrar," to insert "or in case of a Society registered in Ireland, the assistant registrar for Ireland." He wished to acknowledge the great care which the Chancellor of the Exchequer had bestowed on the Bill, which would prove of great advantage to the public, and probably be the most useful measure of the Session. But that advantage would be lessened if, while Societies in Ireland were allowed to be registered by the Assistant Registrar, with an appeal to the Courts, when the slightest matter of detail arose the authority of that officer was ousted, and that of the Chief Registrar invoked. Suppose all the members of the Society wished to dissolve, why should not the man who was competent to deal with its registration be competent to deal with its cancellation? He thought that it would involve much inconvenience and expense if it was necessary that those interested in Irish Societies should come over to England to get the cancellation of their Registrar.
§
Amendment proposed,
In page 8, line 23, after the word "registrar," to insert the words "or in case of a society registered in Ireland, the assistant registrar for Ireland."—(Mr. Meldon.)
§ Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
§ THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERbegged to tender his thanks to the hon. and learned Gentleman for the manner in which he had spoken of the mea- 307 sure, and also for the spirit in which he had discussed the various Amendments he had moved. He was sorry he could not accept the present Amendment, as it would probably lead to confusion. It was very undesirable that there should be two authorities; it might lead to conflicting decisions, and a difference of action between one part of the Kingdom and another. He thought that the hon. Member had exaggerated the inconvenience which would be felt by those who might be required to come over to this country to obtain the cancellation of an Irish Society's register.
§ SIR JOSEPH M'KENNAsaid, he could not understand why the Assistant Registrar in Ireland should not have the power to cancel the register of a Society registered in Ireland. The decisions of the Assistant Registrar would be subject to revision and reversal before the Courts of Law in Ireland, just as the Chief Registrars were to be subject to the revision of the English Courts, and this being so there could be no well founded complaint against the competency of the Assistant Registrar to give a decision which was subject to appeal if it was not accepted.
§ MR. BUTTsaid, it was a great injustice to the Irish people that they should be compelled to go to the trouble and expense of bringing these cases on appeal to the Court of Queen's Bench at Westminster, instead of in the Irish Court.
§ MR. O'SHAUGHNESSYsupported the Amendment. If it was not adopted the Act would become a dead letter in Ireland.
§ MR. GREGORYsaid, the Chancellor of the Exchequer might, with propriety, adopt the Amendment. It would be very expensive and a great hardship that the Irish Societies should have to come to England to have their certificates cancelled.
§ SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACHpointed out that the Amendment, if adopted, would allow the Assistant Registrar to go beyond his proper functions, and that he might override the decisions given by the Chief Registrar. The case, as regarded Societies in Ireland alone, was met by another clause of the Bill, which gave the Chief Registrar power to delegate certain of his functions to the Assistant Registrars, and the cancellation of registry of So- 308 cieties confined to Ireland was a duty which might be most properly so delegated.
§ MR. E. STANHOPEsaid, that in dealing with the cancellation of certificates it was desirable it should be done on some uniform and intelligible principle. It would be better to agree to the clause, and give an appeal from the Chief Central Registrar to the Irish Court of Queen's Bench.
§ MR. DODSONsaid, the difficulty must be got rid of by introducing into the Amendment the word "exclusively" registered in Ireland.
§ SIR JOSEPH M'KENNAsaid, the word "exclusively" would be liable to misconception.
§ MR. W. HOLMSsaid, it would be only making the Bill uniform by giving the same power to Ireland that was to be extended to Scotland.
§ THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, he was desirous to meet the views of the hon. Member, and, if the Amendment was withdrawn, he would move that the power desired by the hon. Member to be placed in the hands of Assistant Registrars should be so placed in the case of Societies registered in Ireland or Scotland exclusively.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Amendment (Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer) agreed to.
§ Clause, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clause 14 (Duties and obligations of societies).
§ MR. MELDONmoved, in page 10, line 4, after "office," to insert "in every country where such Society is registered or recorded."
§ THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, he thought the Amendment unnecessary, the object of the hon. Member being practically met otherwise in the Bill.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERmoved an Amendment with regard to auditors. When the Bill was in Committee a proposal was adopted requiring that the names and addresses of the auditors should be sent up to the Registrar, and published by posting a notice in the lodge or board-room of the Society, if any, three months before the period of audit. Since this proposal was embodied in the Bill he had re- 309 ceived communications from the representatives of Friendly Societies, including the great Orders of the Manchester Unity and the Foresters, showing that it would seriously interfere with their present system of audit. He therefore now moved the omission of this part of the clause.
§ MR. DODSONsaid, the words in question formed the only attempt in the Bill—a very feeble one, at the best—to bring about a thorough audit.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause agreed to.
§ Clause 15 (Privileges of societies).
§ MR. WHITWELLmoved, in page 14, sub-section 7, line 26, after "death," insert "or lunacy."
§ THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERopposed the Amendment. The principle, he contended, would be an entirely new one. At present priority was allowed in the case of deaths and bankruptcy, because in such eventualities the property was divided; but in the event of lunacy it was generally kept together.
§ Question put, and negatived.
§ THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERmoved, in page 14, sub-section 7, line 34, to leave out "the deceased," and insert "such officer," and add as a separate paragraph—
Bankruptcy or insolvency in the present section includes liquidation of a debtor's affairs by arrangement in England, cessio bonorum of a debtor in Scotland, and a petition for arrangement with creditors in Ireland; and a trustee in bankruptcy or insolvency includes an assignee in Ireland and a judicial factor in Scotland.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clause 22 (Disputes).
§ MR. FIELDENmoved, in page 22, line 7, after the word "decided," to insert—
by arbitration under the rules of the Society, provided the rules so direct; in such case one arbitrator shall be appointed by the member or person claiming through the member, and one by the Society, the said arbitrators shall appoint an umpire, and the said arbitrators and umpire shall hold their sittings within twelve miles of the residence of the member or the person claiming through a member.His object was to make the arbitration a real one, so that persons living in Yorkshire or Lancashire should not have their claims adjudicated upon by arbitrators in London.
§ THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, he did not think it would be possible to lay down any general rule on this matter. He believed that very great inconvenience would be found in practice from a departure from the general system of arbitration now in existence, and he should be very unwilling to interfere with it.
§ Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and negatived.
§ Clause agreed to.
§ Clause 27 (Limitations of benefits).
§ SIR GEORGE JENKINSONmoved, in page 30, line 26, to leave out "thirty pounds," and insert "such a sum a-year." His object was to prevent any member of these Societies from receiving benefit to such extent as would exceed his wages when in full work.
§ THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, it was an important point, and he would carefully consider the matter, but he could not assent to some of the words proposed by the hon. Baronet.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Clause 28 (Payments on death of children.)
§ MR. CHARLEYsaid, that the Bill of last year contained a clause to the effect that the life of an infant of three years of age should not be insurable. In the present Bill there was no provision limiting the age, but there was a provision limiting the amount for which the life of an infant should be insurable to £3. The right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer at first accepted an Amendment raising the sum to £5 and then to £6, and as the Bill now stood the life of a baby of one day old might be insured for £6. He thought that in the case of persons, many of whom were little above the position of paupers, it was undesirable to continue such a temptation. He therefore proposed, in page 30, line 23, after "pay," to insert "any sum of money whatever on the death of a child under six months of age, or shall insure or pay." He had consulted the officers of many of the largest Friendly Societies, who all assured him they concurred with the principle of his Amendment, which had, in fact, been incorporated in their rules as the result of their own experience.
§
Amendment proposed,
In page 30, line 36, after the word "pay," to insert the words "any sum of money on the death of a child under six months of age, or shall insure or pay."—(Mr. Charley.)
§ MR. HOPWOODsaid, he hoped the Government would stand by the decision which was adopted on the last occasion.
§ MR. ALEXANDER BROWNsaid, he could see no reason why the Amendment should not be accepted.
§ SIR WALTEE BARTTELOTsaid, he thought the proper limit was £3, and he was very much surprised when the right hon. Gentleman had given way on that point. This was a minor proposal, but still it was one of great importance. He was quite sure there was a feeling abroad that something ought to be done with regard to burial money for infants. The evil would be partially met if the Amendment were accepted, as he sincerely hoped it would.
§ SIR EDWARD WATKINsaid, he thought the Chancellor of the Exchequer had made very wise concessions on this point, and they had been most gratefully received by the working classes. He regretted that the poor people of this country had been so grievously libelled. What right had anyone to suppose that they would be tempted to murder their children for the sake of obtaining £6? Why did the House not stop fire insurance because some people burnt down their houses, or marine insurance because ships were sometimes scuttled in order to obtain the insurance money? He trusted that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would remain firm on this point, and not accept the Amendment.
§ MR. HENLEYalso thought the Chancellor of the Exchequer had acted wisely in the concessions he had made. The Amendment was a retrograde movement. A nasty suspicion had been raised, but no evidence had been published by the Friendly Societies Committee that could justify it. If there was any real suspicion a Commission ought to be issued specially to inquire into it. It reminded him of the Dutch, who at one time first hanged the pirates and tried them afterwards. There was no evidence in support of the suspicion that poor children were neglected or "put away" for the sake of enabling their parents or those who had charge of them to get the insurance money. From a 312 Return lately presented in the House of Lords, it appeared that the mortality of children under five years of age in Liverpool was about 43 per cent on the average of the years in the Return, whereas in the evidence of the Friendly Societies Commission the deaths in a burial society at Liverpool were only 50 per cent up to 10 years of age. He, for one, hoped the Chancellor of the Exchequer would not give way. It would be perpetrating injustice against a large number of our countrymen without any proof whatever that they deserved the stigma. He had a strong feeling in the matter, and he could not help thinking it sad that they should seem to countenance this reflection on the humbler classes of their countrymen without proper inquiry.
§ THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, he thought the House ought to be guided to a great extent by what had already passed on the subject. The question had created a great deal of interest, and had excited a great deal of discussion when the Bill was in Committee, and the decision then arrived at was viewed as a settlement as far as the present Bill was concerned. Under these circumstances, whatever might be his own feelings with regard to the Amendment of the hon. and learned Member for Salford (Mr. Charley), he did not think it would be wise to press the House to adopt it. Great care and watchfulness were required with regard to the lives of infants. He did not mean to say that the parents of England were chargeable with the abominable crime of destroying their children for the sake of obtaining a small sum of money, but there were many children of tender age that were not sufficiently cared for; he particularly alluded to the cases of baby-farming and illegitimate children. The question under discussion was whether further precautions ought to be adopted to prevent the mischiefs which happened under the Friendly Societies Acts. The proposals made by the Royal Commission were of a very drastic character, and those proposals had been abandoned so far as the present Bill was concerned, but he believed that those which had been adopted would be efficacious in checking abuses, and did not think it desirable to go one step further. He should, therefore, oppose the Amendment.
§ SIR HENRY JAMESprotested against the idea that in legislating on 313 this question they were libelling any class of their countrymen. They were not to look at that; what they had to consider was simply whether the legislation was right or wrong. The principle underlying the law in this question was that if you had anything to gain by the death of a person you should not insure the life; for, it was held, by going contrary to this principle the person having an interest in the insured was placed in a position of temptation. The temptation became greater as the person became poorer, and the insured was of a tender age and without power to protect itself. But if the House had determined on one thing, it was for the House to say whether it could alter its opinion.
§ LORD ESLINGTONsaid, the recommendations of the Commission were mainly based upon the figures supplied by the Societies; but since the Commission closed its labours the Royal Liver Society had cut the ground completely from under the feet of the Commission. That Society had actually proved, by a laborious investigation, that the percentage of deaths of children insured in that Society was very much less than the percentage outside it. He rejoiced to hear that the Chancellor of the Exchequer was resolved to adhere to the wise decision at which the Committee had arrived.
§ COLONEL MUREobserved, that before the Royal Commission respecting factory operatives, a considerable amount of evidence was adduced to show the reckless manner in which the lives of children were frequently sacrificed. He believed that a large number of hon. Members had serious misgivings as to the course which Parliament was now pursuing in regard to the sums to be paid on the death of children, and hoped that the hon. and learned Member for Salford (Mr. Charley) would take a division on his Amendment.
§ DR. C. CAMERONsaid, the Amendment would not impose any disability upon existing Friendly Societies; it would only prevent new Societies which might spring up hereafter from embarking in the branch of business to which objection was taken.
§ SIR JOSEPH M'KENNApointed out that if children were killed for the sake of the insurance on their lives, the Societies themselves would find the busi- 314 ness unprofitable and discontinue it. He could not at all entertain the suspicion that the societies which were interested in the lives of the children could permit themselves to be defrauded by individual members in the manner alleged.
§ MR. W. HOLMSobserved, that a stigma would be cast upon the working classes if the privilege they now enjoyed in respect to insurance were restricted. As to the Report of the Royal Commission on this subject, he must say that he had seldom seen any Report in which conclusions so remarkable were drawn from such a narrow area of observation. They referred to the infant mortality of Liverpool, where Burial Societies were numerous. No doubt it was excessive in that town; but it was equally great in Glasgow, to which they did not refer at all. In both those cities the excessive infant mortality arose, he believed, from causes of a sanitary character.
§ MR. DODSONrecommended that the House should not be put to the trouble of dividing, but negative the Amendment at once.
§ MR. LYON PLAYFAIRsaid, he served on a Commission which inquired into the state of large towns in Lancashire some years ago, and they were greatly struck with the increased number of deaths amongst children who had been insured in Burial Societies, as compared with those who had not been insured at all; and they urged upon the Government to take some steps to prevent the evil. He was prepared to support the Amendment, which did not cast any stigma upon the Friendly Societies, as it proceeded on the same lines as the Gambling Act of the last century, which still prohibited insurance on a life upon which a direct pecuniary interest did not exist.
§ Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
§ The House divided:—Ayes 54; Noes 286: Majority 232.
§ SIR EDWARD WATKINmoved, in page 31, line 12, to insert, "and the sum charged by the registrar of deaths for such certificate shall not exceed one shilling."
§ Amendment agreed to
315§ Clause 30 (Societies receiving contributions in two or more counties by collectors).
§ MR. W. HOLMSmoved, in page 34, line 11, to insert—
The provisions of this sub-section shall apply to all Friendly Societies and Industrial Assurance Companies whether registered under this Act or unregistered, receiving contributions by means of collectors.The object of the Amendment was to place all Friendly Societies on the same footing as regarded transfers, no matter at what distance they might be situated from the parent Society. The Bill, as it stood at present, offered a direct premium to Societies to remain unregistered so as to avoid all trouble and expense in connection with transfers.
§ THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, there was no objection, as a matter of even-handed justice, to extend the provision in the way the hon. Gentleman desired.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clause 31 (As to cattle insurance and certain other Societies).
§ MR. M'CARTHY DOWNINGmoved an Amendment to the effect that all monies paid by a member of a Society should be recoverable in the County Court of the district in which such member resided.
§ THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, the question had been discussed when the Bill was in Committee, and the general feeling was rather in favour of leaving the clause as it stood. The clause, he might mention, did not apply to Societies generally, but only to special Societies, which were very few in number.
§ MR. GIBSONsaid, he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would favourably consider the proposal, and pointed out the great cost and inconvenience which would result from persons being summoned from long distances—for instance, from Ireland to London—because the head office of the Society happened to be established in that city.
§ MR. BUTTsaid, he hoped at least words would be inserted to prevent people resident in Ireland being summoned to an English Court.
§ Amendment agreed to.
316§ Clause 33 (Summary procedure and appeals).
§ MR. MELDONmoved, in page 36, line 28, after "committed," to insert—
Or in the case of any prosecution against any person other than a society where such person is resident at the time of the institution of such prosecution, or where the offence has been committed.
§ THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsuggested that if the hon. Gentleman added the words "society or its officers," he would agree to the Amendment.
§ Amendment, as amended, agreed to.
§ MR. MELDONmoved, in page 37, line 4, to leave out "of a resident magistrate," and insert "of two or more Justices of the Peace sitting in Quarter Sessions."
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause, as amended, agreed to.
§
On Motion of The LORD ADVOCATE, the following Amendments were agreed to:—
Clause 33, page 37, lines 13 and 14, leave out 'summons or complaint,' and insert' order or conviction.'
Clause 33, page 38, line 15, leave out after 'Act' to end of Clause, and insert '(1) to the Court of Justiciary or any circuit court thereof, under and in terms of the Act of the twentieth year of the reign of His Majesty King George the Second, chapter forty-three, or under any Act amending that Act, or applying or incorporating its provisions or any of them with regard to appeals; or (2) to the Court of Justiciary at Edinburgh, under and in terms of The Summary Prosecutions Appeals (Scotland) Act, 1875.'
§ Bill to be read the third time Tomorrow.