HC Deb 22 July 1875 vol 225 cc1822-9
MR. PLIMSOLL

(with great excitement)—I beg, Sir, to move the adjournment of the House. Sir, I earnestly entreat the right hon. Gentleman at the head of Her Majesty's Government not to consign some thousands of living human beings to undeserved and miserable death. Sir, I believe, and I have not hesitated to say—and I told the President of the Board of Trade him- self at an early period of the Session—I do not for a moment charge him with anything like breach of faith or treachery—that the Bill, of which the first 30 clauses were merely re-enactments—with unimportant exceptions—was so drawn as to afford unlimited facilities for death-dealing volubility and hypocritical Amendments. I adhere to that opinion. I want that the House should understand the position of the question. Under the Board of Trade, since 1862, when unhappily the commercial marine of this country was committed to their care, matters have been getting worse and worse, with the and of shipowners of murderous tendencies outside the House, and who are immediately and amply represented inside the House, and who have frustrated and talked to death every effort to procure a remedy for this state of things—["Name! name!"] I will give the names very soon. I ask hon. Members if they have not seen in the newspapers the report of the recent judgment of Lord Justice Giffard in the case of the Bard of Avon, and the statement that in the case of this ship, which was bought for about £780, and being of about an equal amount of tonnage, and having had about £800 spent upon her in repairs—making the total value about £1,500—the owners, immediately on the vessel being repaired, entered into a contract which would have recouped them that sum total of the cost in one half of the first voyage. I entreat you to consider it. I must speak out. The Secretary of Lloyd's tells a friend of mine that he does not know a single ship which has been broken up voluntarily by the owners in the course of 30 years on account of its being worn out. Ships gradually pass from hand to hand, until bought by some needy and reckless speculators, who send them to sea with precious human lives. On the 3rd of this month I had a list carefully prepared of 15,000 vessels on Lloyd's Register; and on going over these what does the House think was the result? It was found that no fewer than 2,654 of the classed ships had gone off their class and forfeited their position. And what is the consequence that ensues? It is that continually, every winter, hundreds and hundreds of brave men are sent to death, their wives are made widows and their children are made orphans, in order that a few speculative scoundrels, in whose hearts there is neither the love of God nor the fear of God, may make unhallowed gains. There are shipowners in this country of ours who have never either built a ship or bought a new one, but who are simply what are called "ship-knackers," and I accidentally overheard a Member of this House described in the Lobby by an ex-Secretary to the Treasury as "a shipknacker." ["Order!"]

MR. SPEAKER

I must point out to the hon. Member that his speech, and all the references of his speech, relate to a Bill which is on the Order Book, and which is set down for consideration this very day. His observations would be quite in Order if made on the Order that that Bill be discharged; but he is not at liberty to discuss, on a Motion for adjournment, the merits of any Bill which is on the Orders of the House.

MR. PLIMSOLL

Then, Sir, I give Notice that on Tuesday next I will put this Question to the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade. I will ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he will inform the House as to the following ships—the Tethys, the Melbourne, the Nora Greame, which were all lost in 1874 with 87 lives, and the Foundling and Sydney Dacres, abandoned in the early part of this year, representing in all a tonnage of 9,000 tons; and I shall ask whether the registered owner of these ships, Edward Bates, is the Member for Plymouth, or if it is some other person of the same name. ["Order!"] And, Sir, I shall ask some questions about Members on this side of the House also. I am determined to unmask the villains who send to death and destruction—[Loud cries of "Order!" and much excitement.]

MR. SPEAKER

The hon. Member makes use of the word "villains." I presume that the hon. Gentleman does not apply that expression to any Member of this House.

MR. PLIMSOLL

I beg pardon?

MR. SPEAKER

The hon. Member made use of the word "villains." I trust he did not use it with reference to any Member of this House.

MR. PLIMSOLL

I did, Sir, and I do not mean to withdraw it. [Loud cries of" Order!"]

MR. SPEAKER

The expression of the hon. Member is altogether un-Parliamentary, and I must again ask him whether he persists in using it.

MR. PLIMSOLL

And I must again decline to retract. ["Order!"]

MR. SPEAKER

Does the hon. Member withdraw the expression?

MR. PLIMSOLL

No, I do not.

MR. SPEAKER

I must again call upon the hon. Member to withdraw the expression.

MR. PLIMSOLL

I will not.

MR. SPEAKER

If the hon. Gentleman does not withdraw the expression I must submit his conduct to the judgment of the House.

MR. PLIMSOLL

I shall be happy to submit to the judgment of the House, and this is my Protest. (The hon. Member placed a paper on the Table.) ["Order, Chair!"]

MR. DISRAELI

I rise, Sir, under a sense of deep pain—and I am sure every Member of the House will have experienced the same feeling—that a brother Member should have conducted himself in a manner almost unparalleled.

MR. PLIMSOLL

And so has the Government. ["Order, Chair!"]

MR. DISRAELI

I desire, as far as I can, to do that which will conduce to the dignity of the Chair, and to the honour of this House and its Members, and I think the conduct of the hon. Member cannot be passed without notice. It is of the most violent and offensive kind. Although I do it with great reluctance, I feel I am only expressing the sense of the whole House when I say that this is an occasion on which you, Mr. Speaker, must exercise one of your highest duties, and that is that you should reprimand the hon. Gentleman for conduct so disorderly and violent as that we have just witnessed. I beg accordingly to move that the hon. Member for Derby be reprimanded by you, Sir, for his violent and disorderly conduct.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Plimsoll, the Member for Derby, for his disorderly conduct, be reprimanded, in his place, by Mr. Speaker."—(Mr. Disraeli)

MR. SPEAKER

The Motion before the House is that Mr. Speaker do reprimand the hon. Member for Derby for his disorderly conduct.

MR. PLIMSOLL

rose to address the House but was received with cries of "Order!"

MR. SPEAKER

According to the practice of the House the hon. Member for Derby will be heard in his place and will then withdraw.

MR. PLIMSOLL

I beg pardon? I did not hear.

MR. SPEAKER

According to the practice of the House the hon. Member will be heard in his place and will then withdraw.

MR. PLIMSOLL

I will withdraw.

[As the hon. MEMBER was leaving the House he turned round and exclaimed—"Do you know that thousands are dying for this?"]

MR. SPEAKER

The Question is that the hon. Member for Derby for his disorderly conduct be reprimanded by Mr. Speaker in his place.

THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON

I need hardly say that, if necessary—speaking on behalf of Members on this side of the House—I will support the Motion which has been made by the right hon. Gentleman. I rise, however, with great diffidence—feeling that I am not sufficiently acquainted with the Forms of the procedure of the House—for the purpose of making a suggestion. It is quite evident that the hon. Member for Derby, in the observations he has made, has been labouring under feelings of very strong excitement—and although I cannot—and no one could—for a moment desire to entirely justify the language he has used, I cannot help thinking it will be very much to the advantage and dignity of our proceedings if action in this matter could be postponed for a short time, during which I have no doubt—or at least I have great reason to hope—that the hon. Member for Derby may be induced to see the impropriety of his conduct and to set himself right with the House. Therefore, if it is possible that this discussion can be adjourned for a short time, I think it very much to the interest and dignity of the House that this should be done.

MR. SULLIVAN

The House has listened to and witnessed a scene, I believe, without precedent in the annals of this Assembly; and, Sir, as a friend of the hon. Member for Derby—and as one of those who came here to-day, I avow, in concert with him, to support his views upon the question to which he has referred, let me say at once that I do not seek to justify what has occurred. But I do appeal to the House to be as considerate and as indulgent towards him as it can under these circumstances be. I am personally aware that the hon. Member is at this moment extremely ill. I do not wish to go closer into the matter than to express my own opinion, formed from a very constant intercourse with the hon. Member, that within the last two days his mental excitement—the result of an overstrain acting upon a very sensitive temperament—has placed him to-day in a condition of agitation on this subject, such as will, I hope, obtain a generous consideration from this Assembly—offended, and justly offended, as it is by the language he has used—language which I do not attempt to justify or palliate. I feel that if my hon. Friend—for whom I speak at this moment, with a painful sense of my responsibility in the serious position in which he has placed himself—that if he could have the calm retirement of a week he would be himself the first to regret what he has done, so far as it is a transgression of good order and the Forms of this House, and of the duty which he owes to this House. I hold in my hand documents, which I have read, but which I will not use, which have wrought him to the pitch of excitement we have seen to-day. I have no intention of making the case of the hon. Member worse than it is by going into any matters that could hurt the susceptibilities of any in this House. I only plead this for him—that his is a nature eminently unselfish, and that though in this case I think his conduct most unwise, yet I know the painful excitement which has agitated his mind on this subject, and which has within the last few days been such as to give uneasiness to his friends and to those Members of this House who, like myself, have enjoyed his confidence. I will not, I cannot, even for the success of the appeal I now make, say one syllable that would put my hon. Friend in an undignified or in an inconsistent position. I do not believe that even if he were taken to the scaffold he would retract one word of what he would say in calm mind and deliberate judgment; but with regard to the expressions he has used on the present occasion, I feel sure that if he is allowed a few days of rest the hon. Gentleman will set himself right with the House.

MR. DISRAELI

Under the circumstances detailed by the hon. Gentleman, the friend of the hon. Member for Derby, I think it would be best that the hon. Member for Derby should not be required to attend in his place till this day week. I beg, therefore, to move that the debate be adjourned for a week. ["Agreed, agreed!"]

MR. FAWCETT

As I knew the hon. Member for Derby before he came into this House, I hope hon. Members will not think I adopted an unusual course—considering the excitement in which the hon. Gentleman now is—by going to him in the Lobby and having a conversation with him. I can quite confirm what his friend the hon. Member for Louth has stated—namely, that the hon. Member for Derby is in a state of mental excitement to a painful degree, and I am sure nothing can be so kind to him, and nothing so likely to conduce to the dignity of this House, than, as has been proposed by the Prime Minister, that he should not be required to attend in his place for another week. I found him in a state of unusual excitement in the Lobby, and I did what I thought best—namely, after considerable difficulty, I persuaded him to take a walk in the open air. The hon. Member will have an opportunity in the course of a week of consulting with his friends, and I am sure—though I have no authority to speak in his name—between then and now the hon. Member, who is not unreasonable, will regret—strongly as he may feel on the subject to which he has devoted himself—that he used expressions which none of us can justify or uphold. ["Agreed, agreed!"]

MR. BASS

As the Colleague of the hon. Gentleman, and one who is well acquainted with his excellent qualities, I hope the House will permit me to offer my grateful acknowledgments to the Prime Minister for the considerate course he has suggested.

Debate adjourned to Thursday next.

[The following is the entry of the subject upon the "Votes and Proceedings of the House."]

Mr. Plimsoll, the Member for Derby, having used expressions in Debate which, when called upon by Mr. Speaker, he refused to withdraw; and having otherwise conducted himself in a disorderly manner:—

Motion made, and Question proposed, That Mr. Plimsoll, the Member for Derby" for his disorderly conduct, be reprimanded, in his place, by Mr. Speaker.

Whereupon Mr. Plimsoll, without claiming to be heard, withdrew.

Debate adjourned till Thursday next.