HC Deb 01 July 1875 vol 225 cc788-90
SIR EDWARD WATKIN

asked the Vice President of the Council, Whether, in reference to the "Exeter Endowed Schools Scheme," it is true that that scheme was signed and approved by Lord Lyttelton and Mr. H. J. Roby, under date 22nd May 1874; and that, after it was so signed and approved, an important addition was made to Clause 72; and, if such addition was so made, if he would explain to the House at what date, on whose suggestion, and with what object was it made?

VISCOUNT SANDON

Sir, I am somewhat troubled by the form of the Question, but I will answer it as satisfactorily as I can. "The Exeter Endowed Schools Scheme" was forwarded to the Committee of Council on Education with the signatures of Lord Lyttelton and Mr. Roby attached to it, as appears in the Parliamentary Paper of the 22nd of May, 1874. Since that time various objections have been made to it, which, under the Act of 1873, the Committee of Council was bound to consider. Some of the changes proposed by the objectors were agreed to by the Committee of Council, and others were rejected, and after a time the scheme was approved by the Lord President of the Council. Under the Act it must lie upon the Table for two months, and during that time it is competent for any member to move the rejection of the scheme. If such should be the case, I shall be happy on the part of the Government to explain the reasons which led to the changes that have been made in the scheme; but it would not be in accordance with the usage of the Committee of Council for me to state, in answer to a Question, all the details which the hon. Member requests me to mention. I may add that the course pursued in this case with regard to the scheme which has been laid upon the Table is the same one which has been adopted with regard to others.

MR. W. E. FORSTER

said, he wished to know whether the scheme which had been laid upon the Table, and to which the names of Lord Lyttelton and Mr. Roby were attached, was the scheme signed by Lord Lyttelton and Mr. Roby, and approved by them?

VISCOUNT SANDON

I think there can be no doubt whatever about that, because the original scheme was published in the locality; and this scheme is different from that, as an alteration has been made in it.

MR. W. E. FORSTER

I am afraid, the n, I must ask what that alteration is.

VISCOUNT SANDON

I think, with the indulgence of the House, it is hardly fitting to enter into an argument on the subject now.

MR. W. E. FORSTER

I do not ask my noble Friend for any argument in favour of the alteration; but, inasmuch as it is before the House as a scheme signed by those two gentlemen, and it appears—it may be through some mistake, but, at any rate, it so happens—that the scheme which appears to have been signed by them was really not signed by them. I ask what is the addition to the scheme?

VISCOUNT SANDON

The simplest thing would be to lay the whole scheme on the Table, and that, I think, would be a very desirable thing. The signatures of the Commissioners are attached to this scheme because my right hon. Friend objected last year to the practice of introducing schemes without the names of the Commissioners being attached to them.

MR. W. E. FORSTER

I am sorry to detain the House, but my objection was that the Commissioners should be made to appear as attaching their signatures to a portion of the scheme which they did not sign.

VISCOUNT SANDON

The simplest plan will be to lay upon the Table the alteration which has been made. There is no mystery whatever about it.

MR. NEWDEGATE

I wish to ask the noble Viscount whether the Education Department have not under the Act of 1873 power to alter a scheme after it has been proposed by the Commissioners who are now superseded?

MR. HORSMAN

What my right hon. Friend wishes to know, I presume, is whether the signature of the Commissioners is appended to that part of the scheme which has been altered since they signed it originally.

VISCOUNT SANDON

There is no doubt whatever that the Committee of Council has power to alter a scheme under the circumstances to which my hon. Friend refers. With regard to the question of the right hon. Gentleman, I think the simplest thing will be to lay the scheme, with the alterations, on the Table, so that the House may be in a position to understand the matter fully.

MR. W. E. FORSTER

said, that the words attached to the scheme were—" We hereby signify our approval of the scheme.—(Signed) LYTTELTON and J. H. ROBY." It was stated that it was signed by the Commissioners on the 22nd of May, 1875, but long before that date they had ceased to be Commissioners. He asked the noble Lord if, under all the circumstances, it would not be the best course to withdraw the scheme and to place a fresh one before the House?

VISCOUNT SANDON

said, the date given must be a clerical error. He would make inquiry of the Charity Commissioners.

MR. W. E. FORSTER

gave Notice that he would take an early opportunity of asking the Speaker whether the circumstances did not require a new scheme?