LEAVE. FIRST READING. (Hansard, 8 February 1875)

§ THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER
, in rising to move, "That leave be given to bring in a Bill to consolidate and amend the Law relating to Friendly and other Societies, said: Taking into consideration the number of Bills that will be brought forward to-night, it is neither necessary nor convenient that I should occupy much time in asking the House for leave to introduce a measure for consolidating and amending the laws relating to Friendly Societies. The principles of the Bill I propose to lay before the House are mainly the same as those of the Bill of last Session, with which hon. Members are familiar. We propose to continue the present system of registration of Friendly Societies, but we propose to make such amendments in that system as will enable it to work with better effect. The Bill will, therefore, in the main be similar to that of last year; but during the Recess, a great many communications have been made to me by persons connected with and interested in these societies, and the Government, having carefully considered those communications, have made several Amendments in that measure. In framing those Amendments, we have borne in mind that this great system of Friendly Societies is one which has sprung from the people themselves, and that, therefore, in whatever alterations we might make in the system, we should be careful to carry the people with us, 116 and to act in harmony with the work which is going on. I will now state in a very few words what are the principal alterations which we propose to make in the Bill. In the first place, we propose to make one great change in the measure as it stood last year, by abolishing the proposals for local registration. I am not at all sure that those proposals were not good in themselves, as they would have conduced to that which is the great object of this legislation—namely, the enlarging of the information to be laid before those interested in these societies. There were, however, two objections to those proposals which weighed considerably with us—one, that to carry them out would be very expensive; and the other, that we could not establish a system of registration by clerks of the peace, without running the risk of bringing about some want of uniformity in their decisions and views, a result that might load to much confusion. Under these circumstances, we have dropped those proposals for local registration, and registration will be carried on in the same way as at present, except that the Registrars of Scotland and Ireland, who will be retained, will be subordinated to the chief office in London, and thus there will be but one system of registration for the United Kingdom, directed from a common centre, while the special peculiarities of each part of the Empire will be considered and met by having officers competent to decide any questions that may arise. We have also endeavoured to meet the objections which have been raised as to what are characterized as the too great powers which the Bill of last year proposed to give to the Registrars. It is, of course, inevitable, if a Bill of this sort is passed, that some power should be given to the Registrar, not for the purpose of putting power in his hands, or those of the Government, but for the convenience of the societies themselves. It would be utterly impossible to provide by legislation for every case that might arise, and if an attempt were made to do so, we should have a series of cast-iron rules, which would work most inconveniently for the societies themselves. It was, therefore, proposed by the Bill of last year to give certain powers to the Registrar with reference to certain particulars which would operate for the convenience of the 117 societies. However, we now propose not to give certain of those powers, and to modify some of the others proposed to be given. Among those which we do not intend to give is one of considerable importance. Under the Bill of last year, it was proposed that the Registrar should, under certain circumstances, have power not only to order the dissolution of a society upon the representation of a certain proportion of its members, but to re-arrange and alter the benefits and the contributions of the society. There can be no doubt that it would be a very convenient and useful power for a properly constituted authority to exercise. Cases will frequently arise in which the members of a society may find that they are going on in a way that must ultimately result in disaster, and that while it would be a pity to dissolve it, the rate of contribution must be increased, or the rate of benefits must be lowered, if they are to tide over the difficulty. We, however, find that an objection is entertained by the societies to entrusting the Registrar with such powers, and, as the main principle that we desire to carry out is to give information to the societies which they may utilize for themselves, and as we do not propose to interfere with their working in any unnecessary way, we have thought it right to omit that power from our Bill. Therefore, the powers of the Registrar in this respect will remain as they are at present, and whenever a petition is presented by a certain proportion of the members of a society, he will proceed as at present to investigate the grounds on which the petition proceeds, and, if necessary, to decree the dissolution of the society; but he will not have power to alter the amount of either the contributions or the benefits. Another provision of a rather important character we have omitted from the present Bill, merely because it is not convenient that it should appear in an Act of Parliament. It is that which directs that the Registrar shall cause tables of mortality to be prepared for the use of the societies. A good deal of misunderstanding has arisen on this point, and it has been supposed that if these tables of mortality were prepared and issued under an Act of Parliament, they would be regarded by the societies to whom they were furnished, as being compulsory, or at least as having a sem- 118 blance of Government authority. Under these circumstances, we dropped that power; but, as we think it of great importance that proper tables should be prepared and issued to promoters of these societies, it is the intention of the Government to do that which they can do without an Act of Parliament, and that is to give directions for the preparation of a proper number of tables, applicable to as many different sets of cases as they can provide for, and to issue them for those who wish to take advantage of them. There will be comparatively few other alterations made in the Bill. It is proposed somewhat to alter the proportion of members who may call for a general meeting of the society; it is also proposed to omit certain words with regard to the appointment of public valuers, which have been misunderstood; and it is provided that that the valuers shall be appointed by the societies themselves, merely requiring that the name, address, and profession of such valuers shall be stated in the returns they may make, so that they may be known as persons of some standing. There will also be some change made with regard to the investments. At present the law requires that the investments of these societies shall be considerably restricted, and we propose to allow a much greater latitude in the form of their investments, in order to assist the societies to improve their position, subject to certain necessary precautions in the matter of publication and audit. The great principle of this Bill is that by it we recognize a state of things existing which we do not de-sire to interfere with or to disturb, but to assist and promote; and we desire, as far as possible, to provide for giving due publicity to the facts bearing on the status of different societies, so that those in whom the members have confidence may be able to tell them what appears to be the real position of the societies. Neither do we intend in any way to introduce unnecessary Government interference. On the contrary, our principle is to leave this good work which has sprung from the people to be carried on by the people themselves. We do not adopt the principle of "Everything for the people, and nothing by the people." We desire that the people should do this work for themselves, and our only wish is to 119 assist them in doing it. I need only to refer to one other clause in the Bill, which is one of considerable interest—namely, the one which relates to the insurances on the lives of children, with reference to which there has been considerable agitation in the minds of those connected with these societies, and on the part of the public generally. I think that a good deal of misapprehension has prevailed on this subject. In introducing this clause into the Bill last year, nothing could have been further from the intention of the Government than to cast any imputation upon the parents of this country as a class, but it must be recollected that there are persons who may avail themselves of the laxity of the law on this subject, who are not the parents of the children whose lives are entrusted to them. We know that there are many cases in which unfortunate children who are the offspring of illegitimate intercourse are entrusted to unscrupulous and careless persons, who may be inclined to make money of them—we know the history of baby-farming, and how melancholy that history is, and it is a most beneficent principle of law which throws its shield over such unfortunates; therefore, in introducing this clause, we had no desire to bring a general charge against the parents of this country that they are not careful of their children's lives, nor to put any restriction upon their making a reasonable and proper provision for the burial of their children in the event of their death. We propose, however, to make some alterations in the Bill as it stood last year. We propose to do away with the restriction which it was intended to impose with regard to the insurance of children under three years of ago, in so far as it extended to a prohibition of insurance in more than one society. We think that prohibition unnecessary, and that there are cases in which it would be bettor to insure for small sums in more than one society, than for a largo sum in a single society. As regards the amount, we propose to limit it to £3 instead of 30s. in the case of a child under three years of age, leaving the sums for children under five and ten as before. It is further intended that certificates should be granted in a more formal way than at present, so as to prevent any mischief which might arise from that cause. In this respect it 120 must be remembered that there will be an exceptional privilege granted to the societies with which we are dealing, for it is one which does not extend to persons who wish to insure in the upper and richer class of society. I think there are no other points to which I need draw attention. I hope there will be no objection to the introduction of the Bill, and from all that reaches mo, I believe there will be no great difficulty in inducing the House to pass the second reading. Of course, when we come to a discussion of the Bill in Committee, there will be many points demanding consideration. We trust the House will be prepared to agree to the second reading within a reasonable time, and an ample opportunity will be given for the discussion of details. I hope we shall be able to pass this measure, for it seems to me one which would be of great advantage to the classes for whose benefit it is designed. It has been framed, as I have shown, with no desire to interfere restrictively with the operations of these societies, but on the contrary, to facilitate and advance them. The right hon. Gentleman concluded by moving for leave to introduce the Bill.

§ SIR GEORGE BOWYER
said, he approved the omission of the provisions in the Bill of last year authorizing the Registrar to prescribe alterations in the rules of the societies. These societies had been founded by the people, and it was right that they should be left to be managed by the people with as little interference as possible. But the right hon. Gentleman proposed to leave to the Registrar the power of dissolving a society whenever he thought proper to do so. That was an extreme power, and he would suggest that before exercing it the Registrar should be bound to inform the society of the defects he found in its affairs, so as to afford it an opportunity of making whatever change might be needed. In that way, the dissolution of a society might be averted.

§ MR. SALT
said, he must acknowledge that the Bill of last year had boon improved. It had always seemed to him that a system of local registration might be attended with considerable difficulty, and he was disposed to think the change in regard to the regulation of investments would prove beneficial. As to the other alterations, they would be better able to judge of them when they saw 121 the Bill. The chief question to his mind was whether the Bill was bold enough to meet the difficulties of the case, and he thought it right to take the earliest opportunity of suggesting this point for the consideration of the right hon. Gentleman. He would also urge the desirability of allowing a considerable time to elapse between the second reading and going into Committee, so as to afford persons in the country who were practically engaged in connection with Friendly Societies an opportunity of studying the details of the measure.

§ MR. W. HOLMS
said, he must congratulate the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the manner in which he had introduced the Bill. He was glad to find the right hon. Gentleman had adopted many of the suggestions made to him last year, and especially that the proposal to create local Registrars had boon abandoned; for he believed that such a system would give rise to a serious want of uniformity in the operation of the law. He was gratified, moreover, by the proposal to limit the powers of the Chief Registrar, which under the former measure would have been almost unlimited, and he heartily concurred with the right hon. Gentleman in thinking that the adoption of the rules published by the Registrar should be made optional, as there were many societies of a peculiar character to which they might not be applicable. As to the clause determining the number of members who might call a meeting to investigate the affairs of a society, if it had been retained as in the Bill of last Session, many large societies might have been put to very great inconvenience and expense by a very small number of troublesome persons. He fully approved likewise of the clause relating to the insurance of children. It had been observed by the hon. Member for Stafford (Mr. Salt) that the Bill was not sufficiently bold. For his part, he thought that it lacked nothing of that quality. In dealing with these societies, it was necessary to remember that they had been founded by working men for themselves, without the aid of the State, and they did not stand in need of any nursing, or interference in their internal arrangements. All that was required was that there should be such legislation as would pro- 122 tect the members from fraud so far as Government could do so, and thus give the public confidence in their management, and that certain lines should be indicated beyond which they must not go. He agreed in thinking that they ought not to go into Committee on the Bill for a considerable time after the second reading, the time fixed for which he should like to know. By doing so they would permit of the provisions of the measure being thoroughly discussed by the people who were interested in the different Friendly Societies throughout the country.

§ THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER
said, that the Bill would be in the hands of hon. Members to-morrow (Tuesday). He proposed that the second reading should be set down for that day week, and would assure the House that ample time would be allowed between the second reading and the Committee.

§ MR. MUNDELLA
said, that day week was too early for the second reading.