HC Deb 09 June 1874 vol 219 cc1271-82
MR. O'SHAUGHNESSY

, in rising to call attention to the state of intermediate Education in Ireland, and to move— That the present state of intermediate education in Ireland is unsatisfactory and requires the immediate and serious consideration of Her Majesty's Government, said, he brought the subject forward with the intention of asking the Government to provide a remedy for a state of things which threatened danger in Ireland. A Royal Commission which sat in 1858 reported on this subject. Their Report stated that there were a number of schools called Royal Grammar Schools, founded by James I., and intended to be free schools, but which made those who resorted to them pay for it. The endowments amounted to about £7,000 a-year. Then there were the endowments known as Erasmus Smith's Grammar Schools, and also the schools of the Incorporated Schools. That society was founded in 1733, and one of the objects assigned for it in its charter was the promotion of the Protestant religion. It had received large endowments. Then he came to the endowed schools, called the diocesan schools, of which there was to be one in every bishopric, though there were many bishoprics without them, while in some they were merely nominal. Then there were the schools of the Irish Society, and the national companies of education reported in 1858 that of the income of the Society, about £12,000 was applicable to school and educational purposes. The endowments for educational purposes in Ireland amounted to £38,000 or £40,000; notwithstanding which fact there were 91 towns in Ireland, having a population of over 2,000 each, which had no grammar or superior English school. These were principally denominational schools. The Protestant clergy generally had the management of them, and though there was no objection to the reception of Catholic students, very few Catholics attended them, nor was it desirable that the two classes should be mixed. He came now to the non-endowed schools, to which a large portion of the Irish middle classes paid. Most of these were in the hands of the Roman Catholic clergy, members of religious orders, or secular priests. The resident pupils in these schools numbered about 2,500, and the schools themselves were about 50. The teaching in those schools was undertaken chiefly by Roman Catholic priests, who gave their services gratuitously. There were also some non-endowed schools, for which there was a moderate pension charged of from £25 to £40 a-year. Notwithstanding the moderate amount of the pensions, they were beyond the reach of many members of the middle classes, whose children were sent to a day school if it was desired that they should have more than an ordinary middleclass education. Then there were the model schools attached to the National Board, at which the same subjects were taught as at the national schools, but in a more advanced manner. Some of the non-endowed schools were in the hands of Roman Catholic clergymen or laymen, and others in the hands of Protestant clergymen or laymen, and it was upon these that middle-class children depended for their education. There was, unfortunately, a great unanimity on the subject of intermediate education in Ireland, and that opinion had been forcibly set forth in a document signed by many eminent clergymen and laymen, both Catholic and Protestant. That document stated that no measure of educational reform that did not deal with intermediate education would be satisfactory. University education, it was said, produced little effect, unless there was a suitable preparatory education, the means for which did not exist in Ireland—certainly not in the southern provinces. There was no University in Ireland which discharged towards the intermediate schools the duty which the Universities of England, France, and Germany discharged towards the intermediate schools in those countries—that of raising their standard of education and compelling them to give their attention to more advanced studies. Commercial education in Ireland had been deteriorating every day, such deterioration affecting the commercial classes not only commercially but also socially. So with regard to other middle classes. An admirable system of elementary education for the lower classes existed in Ireland, and although it had not reached the whole of the population, those classes who had made it available had derived great advantage from it, and the power of the people had become greater contemporaneously with the development of their minds. What was the position of the middle classes in Ireland? Of late years they had not shown the activity that was to be desired and was necessary to give complexion to the time in which they lived. Their capacity to do so had not become less, but it had not increased, and whatever the future of Ireland might be, it would be an evil day if one of the classes of the people lost their power. They had not in Ireland the same machinery which existed in England for preserving the balance of classes. The upper classes, owing to the events of past centuries and for reasons peculiar to Ireland, did not work with the lower classes as harmoniously as they did in this country. Consequently the duty of guiding and moderating the feelings of the people was thrown upon the middle classes. The present state of the country showed that the greatest intelligence on the part of the middle classes was necessary to enable them to discharge this duty well, and the best method of fitting them for this work was to give them a sound, liberal education. It was difficult to suggest a remedy for the present state of things. If he were to ask for Irish Catholics the equality to which they were entitled, and which they would yet enjoy—if he were to ask for a re-distribution of endowments or a grant of fresh endowments—questions would arise which it would take years to settle, and Ireland could not afford to wait for years. He would not ask for a Capitation Grant payable to the masters in proportion to the success of their students, because though that might be very desirable, he could not conceal from himself the fact that it would involve an expenditure to which the House might be unwilling to consent, and it would be argued that it would be for denominational education, whether that was so or not; but he thought that a system of exhibitions might be established which would go far to remedy the evils which now existed. Prizes of £50 or £60 a-year, to be held for one or two years, might be offered to all the unendowed schools in Ireland, whether Protestant or Roman Catholic, and smaller sums given in the way of prizes to other schools to be competed for by their own scholars. A distinct set of prizes ought to be given to particular classes, for the higher classics, for natural history, and for commercial—that is, for a thoroughly good English—education. The classification which would be necessary need not lead to the abandonment of general learning to which the earlier school years might be devoted. With regard to the body to administer the funds, an unpaid Board might be intrusted with that duty, or the Board which now administered the affairs of the Royal schools might with the introduction of a representative element be made available for the purpose; and the three Universities and other learned bodies would supply the Board of Examiners, as Oxford and Cambridge did in the case of the middle class schools in this country. He believed that to carry out this suggestion would involve an expenditure of not more than £4,000 or £5,000 a-year; and if he were asked where the funds were to come from he would say he thought the Queen's University might for the attainment of such an object give up some of its present grant, and he believed from what he knew of that institution that Trinity College would require very little pressure to give some of its income towards the education of the mass of the people. Then there remained the surplus funds of the Irish Church, which yielded under the late system about £2,000 a-year, raised from the income of the Protestant clergy for the support of diocesan schools. But the need was so pressing, and the evils so clearly traceable to past legislation, that he could hardly fancy Her Majesty's Government would refuse this small grant from Imperial funds if it were necessary to resort to the national purse. The State had built and endowed practically denominational schools, and the Catholics of Ireland had done their duty in building schools which were not endowed. He did not mean to say that the plan he suggested was the right one, or that another could not he found of a better description; but he had suggested one because he knew that those who in that House pointed out the need of reform were bound to show that reform was practicable. The hon. Gentleman concluded by moving his Resolution.

MR. MACCARTHY

said, he had great pleasure in seconding the Motion of his hon. Friend the Member for Limerick. The present system of education in Ireland practically excluded the children of the middle classes from all intermediary schools, because all of them were conducted on principles purely Protestant, and from the Colleges, because the University of Dublin was carried on on the same principle, and the Queen's Colleges set aside exclusively for secular education. The Catholic youth of Ireland had no intermediate schools, no College schools, no prizes, or lecture halls, no University honours; while their Protestant countrymen had the advantage of all, and those who chose to go to the Queen's University for a purely secular education, enjoyed the same benefits. The Catholics maintained that something ought to be done for their own children, and that the State ought, at any rate, to assist towards the education of the majority, as they contributed towards the education of the minority. It might be said, why do not Roman Catholic parents send their sons to the University of Dublin or the Queen's University? But the universal answer given by them was—"No; they would follow the same course adopted by their forefathers before them, and have nothing to do with schools where the faith of their children was endangered." He admitted that the remedy suggested by the Motion of his hon. Friend was only partial; but it was brought forward in the right spirit, and he trusted the Government would give it their careful consideration.

Motion made, and Question proposed, That the present state of intermediate education in Ireland is unsatisfactory, and requires the immediate and serious consideration of Her Majesty's Government."—(Mr. O'Shaughnessy.)

MR. MITCHELL HENRY

vindicated his hon. Friend's proposal as one which did not raise the question of religious education. Many valuable prizes existed in Protestant schools, founded by the State or by private benefactors, for which there was hardly any competition, and in the present state of public opinion it was unreasonable to expect that these endowments would be shared by a religion which was not fashionable in this country. He admitted that Roman Catholics laboured under cruel disadvantages, both in the higher and intermediate classes of education; but he thought that the hon. Member for Mallow (Mr. MacCarthy) would have done better if he had not introduced that question into the debate. They were now debating the question of offering prizes to be competed for by the youth of Ireland who were without the means of obtaining a good middle-class education, quite irrespective of creed or party. He presumed that when the affairs of the Disestablished Church in Ireland were wound up there would be a great deal of money to be scrambled for, and perhaps squandered in many ways; but intermediate education in Ireland could not wait till that time. The real aim of those with whom he acted was to civilize the Empire and render it compact. They did not wish to grasp at Imperial funds to carry out that object; there were funds in existence in Ireland which might be made available for encouraging culture among the middle classes. He hoped that by heartily promoting that object the Government would enable them to rejoice at the advent to power of a Ministry who would have shown themselves disposed to take a practical view of the interests of Ireland.

SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH

said, he was very much inclined to think that it would have been better if that question had been left where it was left by the moderate and sensible speech of the hon. Member for Limerick (Mr. O'Shaughnessy), and had been kept free from elements of religious difference. No doubt the hon. Member for Mallow (Mr. MacCarthy) felt strongly on that subject; but he had, at the least, exaggerated the grievances under which the Roman Catholics of Ireland laboured. He did not wish now to enter into the question of University education in Ireland, but Roman Catholic students were on an equality with others in respect to University endowments, for the policy of Parliament lately had been to throw open Trinity College, Dublin, to all religions. But with regard to endowed schools for intermediate education, which had been admitted by the hon. Member for Limerick to belong exclusively to other denominations, there was at present no inconsiderable number of Roman Catholic scholars attending them. With respect, however, to the whole question before the House, it was well that they had had no exaggerated statement of the income arising from the present endowments or of the use which might be made of them in the establishment of a general system of intermediate education. The income belonging to grammar schools, and which, therefore, might properly be devoted to intermediate education was very small—the whole amount, including the annual value of buildings and residences, being, he believed, not more than £13,000 a year. Of that sum a very considerable portion, if not all, was the property of exclusively denominational foundations. Therefore, no one who looked at the question with the idea of establishing a more general and thorough system of intermediate education for Ireland would think that could be done from the existing endowments for that purpose. He did not say that those endowments could not be further utilized. Bearing always in mind, as they were bound to do, the intentions of the founders and the denominations to which those endowments respectively belonged, he thought much might be done to utilize those endowments more for the members of those particular religions. This was a question which had been from time to time considered by Royal Commissions and other bodies; but, as yet, none of their recommendations had been carried out. The Commissioners in 1858 made several most important recommendations as to the greater utilization of educational endowments. They recommended a better system of appointment and promotion of masters, also a system of inspection and a better audit and an improved mode of keeping accounts. Again, annual Reports from the present Commissioners of Education to whom were intrusted the control and management of some of those endowed schools, had been laid before Parliament. In 1870 those Commissioners, among whom were Chief Justice Whiteside and the Bishop of Meath, recommended various alterations as to the power of appointing and re-moving masters and teachers, except in cases of private patronage; the appointment and payment of inspectors; the opening of University exhibitions which were now confined to certain schools; a power to apply the funds of all public schools for exhibitions in connection with any school they might think fit; and the power of removing public endowed schools from one locality to another, and of aiding the poor endowments from the rich. He did not wish to express any opinion as to those recommendations, some of which might give rise to considerable opposition; but it was strange that, though they were made in 1870, and had since been repeated annually, nothing had yet been done in consequence of them. He now turned to the non-endowed schools where intermediate education was given. The hon. Member for Limerick had hardly fairly stated the advantage which those schools were to the people of Ireland, the Roman Catholics deriving from them the chief benefit. He had scarcely given sufficient weight to the system of Model Schools which had been adopted by the Commissioners of National Education. Those schools, for reasons into which he would not enter, might not have commanded the general confidence and support of the Roman Catholics; but they showed a very considerable attendance, and they effected a very great amount of good. He was told that the annual cost of Roman Catholic intermediate non-endowed schools was as much as £88,000, and the number of pupils 5,000, half of whom were boarders; while the Model Schools, giving a thoroughly efficient education, had an attendance of 8,700 daily pupils, and cost only £32,400 a year to the country. Therefore, considering the number of pupils educated and the small cost of them to the country, he thought the hon. Member had unduly depreciated the influence of the Model Schools of the National Board on the system of intermediate education. Without expressing any definite opinion either on his own behalf or that of the Government, he would state his belief that an urgent want existed of some improvement in intermediate education in Ireland. This was the conclusion arrived at by Lord Powis's Commission in 1870, and of all who had given any attention to the subject. The difficulty was not to admit that there was a deficiency, but to devise a proper and satisfactory remedy for it. Parliament had decided in favour of an undenominational system, both for elementary and University education in Ireland. There was a great deal to be said in favour of that decision, seeing that elementary education dealt with day pupils and University education with those who might be supposed old enough to obtain their religious instruction elsewhere. The question of intermediate education, on the other hand, could hardly be considered as satisfactorily settled by the provision of day schools only. They could not multiply them to such an extent in a sparsely populated country like Ireland as to place them within easy reach of the pupils. Wherever they were placed they would, as a matter of necessity, have to be at a distance from many of those for whose education they were intended, and if they were made boarding schools he did not see how they could be satisfactorily conducted without being denominational. Now, regard being had to the general policy of the Legislature, was it likely that Parliament would establish a purely denominational system of education in Ireland? But, could not the difficulty be fairly met in some other way? The hon. Member for Limerick proposed the foundation of a system of scholarships, gained by competitive examinations, and secured by subsequent examination by Professors, and which might be held at any College or school selected by parents for their sons. A scheme of this kind would require great consideration before it could be satisfactorily worked out. All he could say was that the matter should receive the most careful attention from the Government, and meanwhile he would ask the hon. Member not to press them to come to any immediate decision. The subject of intermediate education was of the greatest importance to Ireland. It had occupied the attention of more than one Royal Commission, and especially of the Commission of 1858; and seeing that, although it had led to so much inquiry, nothing had been done, it might be naturally concluded that it was one of the most difficult subjects that could occupy the attention of those who were responsible for the administration of Irish affairs. No doubt, Irish Members were bound to bring before the House everything that interested their country. They were doing so now; but when he remembered that no proposal on the question had been made by the late Government during their five years' tenure of office, he did not doubt that some little delay would be granted to the present Government. The matter, as he had said, would have his early and attentive consideration, and that of the Government, and he trusted that he should be able to devise a plan which would remedy the evils complained of, and insure for Ireland a better system of intermediate education.

MR. FAWCETT

said, that the House might assume, after the speech of the Chief Secretary for Ireland, that the Government recognized the great importance, magnitude, and difficulty of this subject, and as the right hon. Gentleman had promised that it should engage his immediate attention he would advise hon. Members connected with Ireland to be satisfied with this assurance. There were two questions connected with the matter. There were the existing endowments, and they had to consider whether they could be made more efficient for the advancement of education; and then they had to consider whether those endowments were sufficient. If it should appear that they ought to be supplemented, the question would arise, from what source the money ought to come. His own belief was that Ireland was most inadequately provided with endowments for intermediate education, such provision being far inferior to that available for elementary and University education. It was not possible to have a more striking proof of her wants in this respect than was provided by the state of the Queen's Colleges. Considering all the difficulties those Colleges had had to contend with, he thought they had been a great success; but among their many difficulties the one which he should place in the front rank was this—that in consequence of the great want of intermediate schools in Ireland, the Queen's Colleges had to give instruction to mere lads who ought to be educated at the intermediate schools. In regard to the existing endowments, it seemed to him there was no reason why they should not be made more generally available for the benefit of the Irish people. Certainly, at any rate, the recommendations of the Royal Commission of 1858 with respect to endowed schools ought to be carried out—he regretted that they had so long remained a dead letter. The hon. Member for Limerick (Mr. O'Shaughnessy) had recommended that a small sum—£5,000 a year—should be taken from the Imperial Exchequer and given away in prizes and exhibitions; but he (Mr. Fawcett) did not like this system of perpetual drafts upon the Imperial Exchequer. The amount was small, but the principle was dangerous and inexpedient, and no sum ought to be voted for such a purpose until the House was assured that every other source of supply had been exhausted. The Chief Secretary for Ireland—no doubt restrained by Ministerial prudence—had not hinted at the source of supply which he (Mr. Fawcett) thought it was important for the House to consider. The Prime Minister had recently stated that the surplus funds of the Irish Church would not be available for 17 years, and that then the State would come in for an annuity of £240,000. Why should they wait 17 years to utilize that surplus for educational purposes? Surely it would not be a very difficult actuarial operation to calculate its present actual value, and apply the funds based on that calculation to the purposes of intermediate education. It seemed that nothing could be more unfortunate than the way in which the late Government appropriated the surplus funds of the Irish Establishment. One part was to be appropriated to charities and lunatic asylums, another for the reduction of the county cess, which was, in fact, putting money into the pockets of the landlords. It might be by a roundabout process, but that was where it would find its way. Now, however, when it was calculated upon good grounds that there was this large sum to dispose of, he hoped the Chief Secretary for Ireland would seriously consider how a portion at least could be apportioned to intermediate education in Ireland. Personally, he felt certain that a scheme might be framed for that purpose which would be satisfactory to the Irish people as a whole, and which would serve to bring the educational institutions of Ireland into accord with those of this country. He would be glad to see some such plan as that applied to endowed schools in England introduced into Ireland. It would be one proof to those who asked for Home Rule that an Imperial Parliment could legislate apart from partial or local influence, and would be the best answer to allegations to the contrary—namely, that they were as anxious as the people of Ireland themselves to support any measures which would promote the educational progress of Irishmen in the intermediate, and, consequently, higher schools.

MR. O'SHAUGHNESSY

said, the object he had in view had been attained by the discussion which had taken place, and he therefore begged to withdraw the Motion.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.