HC Deb 27 July 1874 vol 221 cc830-4
MR. NEWDEGATE

moved for an Address for Copies and Translations of any Laws, Ordinances, or regulations relating to Monastic and Conventual Institutions connected with the Church of Rome, and to the inmates or members thereof, especially to the regular Orders of the Church of Rome, which may be enforced by the authority of the State, and are at present operative in France, in the German Empire, in the Austro-Hungarian Empire, in the Russian Empire, in Italy, in Sweden and Norway, in Belgium, in Spain, in Portugal, and in Switzerland.

Amendment proposed, To leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "an humble Address he presented to Her Majesty, that She will he graciously pleased to give directions that there be laid before this House, Copies and Translations of any Laws, Ordinances, or Regulations relating to Monastic and Conventual Institutions connected with the Church of Rome, and to the inmates or members thereof, especially to the regular Orders of the Church of Rome, which may be enforced by the authority of the State, and are at present operative in France, in the German Empire, in the Austro-Hungarian Empire, in the Russian Empire, in Italy, in Sweden and Norway, in Belgium, in Spain, in Portugal, and in Switzerland,"—(Mr. Newdegate,)

—instead thereof.

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."

MR. ERRINGTON

hoped the hon. Member for North Warwickshire would state, whether he was prepared to accept the Amendment which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Kildare (Mr. Cogan) had placed upon the Paper, and which was to extend the inquiry to the United States and the Dominion of Canada? If the hon. Member was not prepared to accept the Amendment, he (Mr. Errington) should be obliged, however unwillingly, to oppose the Motion, in order to be able to put the Amendment.

Question put, and negatived.

Question proposed, "That those words be there added."

MR. SULLIVAN

said, they had received no intimation as to whether the addition to the Motion would be agreed to by the hon. Member for North Warwickshire, who proposed to ransack the whole world for some precedent for that particular kind of legislation which he had so long sought to force on the House. If the hon. Member were indeed labouring in the interests of civil and religious liberty, he should recollect that there was such a portion of the world as the United States of America, in which the institutions which fostered civil and religious liberty had just as strong a hold as in any part of the world. He hoped there would be no objection to asking whether in the Dominion of Canada like Returns could be found. The Catholic Members of that House were quite content that the Motion should be acceded to, for they would welcome any information in relation to Catholic practice or affairs, collected in good faith. They only asked that the inquiry should be made without bias, and that it should be made as wide as possible—in fact, as wide as the civilized world itself.

SIR GEORGE BOWYER

said, he did not object to the Motion, because he did not think the information would in any way be prejudicial to Roman Catholics. But he must say that the hon. Gentleman had chosen those countries where at present persecution was going on under peculiar circumstances. He did not think the object which the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Newdegate) had in view would be assented to by the people of England, because the regulations which existed in the countries to which the hon. Member's Motion referred were contrary to that principle of freedom and civil and religious liberty which this country greatly valued. The Returns would he of no use as an analogy for any legislation in this country. He wished the Return to be ex- tended to Malta, a portion of the British Dominions. He thought the Return would show that in the countries named there was no regulation in force which would be objected to in England; but he objected to the notion which now existed in Germany, under the dictation of one particular statesman, whose name he need not mention, that anything of that sort should be introduced into this country, because he thought that any attempt to introduce into England such laws as were in force in Germany, would be repudiated by both parties in this country.

MR. M'CARTHY DOWNING

objected to both the Motion and the Amendment proposed to be made upon it, and would ask, supposing an application for this information made to the authorities in France and Spain and other countries were refused, how was the Resolution of that House to be carried out?

MR. BOURKE

said, that early in the Session he informed the hon. Member for North Warwickshire there would be no objection on the part of the Government to obtaining the information he desired, and placing it in the Library; but he thought it would be a useless expenditure of public money to translate and print all the documents. They had got together the laws of the countries named, and he thought there was scholarship enough in the House to obviate the necessity for translations. There could be no objection on the part of the Government to add the countries named in the Amendment; but the Constitution of the United States rendered it almost impossible they could have any laws on the subject, and, in fact, an interesting book in the Library showed that they had none. Canada had two or three old laws on the subject. He would gladly put all the available information on the Table of the Library; but he thought that it would be a useless expenditure of public time and money to make translations.

MR. KINNAIRD

said, he should be glad to second the request of the hon. Member for the county of Wexford (Sir George Bowyer). The more information they could have upon the subject the better. But why did his hon. Friend interpose a certain expression about a certain individual in the German Empire? He meant the legisla- tion of Prince Bismarck. He wished the hon. Baronet had spoken boldly out. His hon. Friend was a very old Friend—they had never quarrelled. For himself, he wished to endorse the Prince's policy, and to express the opinion that the attempt on his life should rally all their sympathies. At all events, he was delighted the Prince had escaped the hand of the assassin, and he believed the hon. Baronet would rejoice that the Prince had escaped. The more information they had the better; and, as they were all at one, the sooner they dropped the subject the better.

MR. NEWDEGATE

said, he had been told by the Under Foreign Secretary that the Return would be voluminous, and therefore he had confined himself to countries in Europe in which there had been legislation since 1829, when there was legislation in this country. With regard to America, it was well known there was no written law on this subject, but there was an unwritten Code which controlled institutions of this sort. In Canada there existed regulations on this subject, but they were under the Treaty of Quebec, and not the voluntary product of the Legislature. So also with regard to Malta.

MR. SPEAKER

informed the hon. Member that, having made his Motion, he could not speak again till the Amendment was moved.

MR. SERJEANT SHERLOCK

said, it appeared to be the wish of the House that this Return should be as comprehensive as possible, and he would suggest that in addition to Turkey, Armenia, Syria, Palestine, and the Australian Colonies should be included.

MR. ERRINGTON

moved the addition to the Resolution of the words "and in the United States of America and in the Dominion of Canada."

Amendment proposed to the said proposed Amendment, by adding at the end thereof the words "and in the United States of America and in the Dominion of Canada."—(Mr. Errington.)

SIR GEORGE BOWYER

said, he should also move the addition of Malta.

MR. NEWDEGATE

said, he did not know whether the Government intended to assent to the Amendment. The proposed addition was perfectly unnecessary. The information could be obtained upstairs with regard to America, Canada, and Malta. But if America was included, he should propose to add the Empire of Brazil and the Republics of South America. He should have been content with information relating to Europe.

Question, "That those words be there added," put, and agreed to.

MR. NEWDEGATE

then moved the addition of "the Empire of Brazil."

MAJOR O'GORMAN

proposed to add Peru and Chili.

SIR GEORGE BOWYER

said, the hon. Gentleman had clearly shown that what he wanted was not to have general information on the subject, but sufficient to suit his purpose. He made a Motion just to get what he wanted—information as to the law in those countries in which there at present existed persecution against the Roman Catholic Church. The hon. Member had most reluctantly consented to have that information extended, showing, as he (Sir George Bowyer) thought, for what malignant purposes he wanted the information.

Amendment proposed, after the word "Canada," to add the words "and in the Empire of Brazil."

Question, "That those words be there added," put, and agreed to.

Main Question, as amended, put, and agreed to.

Resolved, That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, that She will be graciously pleased to give directions that there be laid before this House, Copies and Translations of any Laws, Ordinances, or Regulations relating to Monastic and Conventual Institutions connected with the Church of Rome, and to the inmates or members thereof, especially to the regular Orders of the Church of Rome, which may be enforced by the authority of the State, and are at present operative in France, in the German Empire, in the Austro-Hungarian Empire, in the Russian Empire, in Italy, in Sweden and Norway, in Belgium, in Spain, in Portugal, in Switzerland, in the United States of America, in the Dominion of Canada, and in the Empire of Brazil.