ADJOURNED DEBATE. (Hansard, 5 August 1874)

§ MR. FAWCETT
said, he could not help expressing his regret that so many attempts were made on the previous evening to "count" the House, as he thought it evinced a great disregard of an important subject that deeply concerned Ireland. In speaking on the subject, he maintained that the Queen's Letter consisted of two parts. It gave power to Trinity College and the University of Dublin to carry out the Act passed last Session; and the authorities of the College and. University had endeavoured in the internal regulations they had framed in this Letter to carry out the Act with most scrupulous fidelity and care. But the Queen's Letter also contained a scheme for the partial reorganization of the College and University. It was objected that that was a partial and imperfect scheme, and could not be regarded as a final settlement of the question. Now, he agreed that the fact was so, and to that extent he concurred in the Motion of the hon. and learned Member for Limerick; but even the scheme which was contained in the Bill he first brought forward on this subject, though it went considerably further than that contained in the Letter, could not be regarded as a final settlement, but only as putting both bodies in a better position for reforming themselves in future. It was in that light that he looked upon the Queen's Letter. The practical question was, would the Letter place the authorities of the College and University in a better position sooner or later to develop a more complete and final settlement of the question? He begged to repeat the opinion he had often expressed, that he placed entire confidence in the liberality, enlightenment, and sagacity of the authorities of the College and University; but he felt that he should not be acting towards them the part of a true or a sincere friend if he did not add that no settlement could be final which left the Board with so much power as was now proposed, and he would impress on them that permanence for the existing Board was out of the question. He must also urge them to develop a more liberal and national organization, as it would be quite impossible to permit the whole affairs of the University to remain in the hands of a Board consisting exclusively of the Provost and the seven Senior Fellows. He hoped they would 1375 be enabled to proceed in the same spirit of liberality and wisdom which they had hitherto displayed, and gradually develop their ancient and illustrious institution into the great national University of the Irish people.

§ MR. SYNAN
said, he was by no means opposed to the interests of the Dublin University, but he must protest against the scheme in the Queen's Letter as not affording a proper basis for the establishment of a national system of education. He had no objection to the first part of the scheme, and would recommend that it be adopted; but as to the second, which was partial and imperfect, it ought not to be adopted until an opportunity had been afforded to the Irish people to see whether a National University could be founded upon it. All he asked was that the scheme should be suspended until the country had had sufficient time to consider it.

§ MR. D. E. PLUNKET,
as one of the Representatives of Dublin University, wished to say for himself and for the Governing Body of that University, that they were glad an opportunity had been afforded of discussing this matter in that House. Such Queen's Letters were not of necessity brought under the cognizance of Parliament, but as the present one was more important than usual, the Governing Body desired it to be freely canvassed. He had observed with regret the attempt made to "count" the House last night during the speech of the hon. Member for Hackney, but the friendly advice he had given to-day to the University, by whom the hon. Member had stood so faithfully, would, he had no doubt, receive its calm consideration. Various schemes had been under deliberation; and the slow promotion of the Junior Fellows of the College had been adverted to. It should, however, be remembered that the disestablishment of the Irish Church had deprived the College of some valuable patronage, and perhaps the compensation money it was to receive for these losses might afford an opportunity of improving the position of the Junior Fellows in this respect. The principal objection now urged to entertaining the Queen's Letter and to its receiving the Royal Assent was, that time had not been given for its consideration; and although it was not suggested that any attempt had been 1376 made to smuggle through the Queen's Letter, yet the House ought to know the steps which had been taken by the Governing Body to ascertain the feeling of the public. First, they formed committees of the Junior Fellows and Professors, and the result was that they brought forward a scheme of reform. They next called upon the Vice Chancellor to summon a meeting of the Senate to consider this scheme. A meeting of the Senate was held, and it was proposed that there should be an adjournment of a fortnight in order to explain to the country the action which was about to be taken. The adjournment actually granted was not for a fortnight, but three weeks. When the Senate re-assembled, the matter was discussed for six successive days. During that time frequent amendments were proposed, divisions were taken, every suggestion made was fully considered, and then a further adjournment for three weeks was agreed upon. When the Senate again met the scheme which had been already sanctioned by the Senior and Junior Fellows and Professors, was adopted unanimously by the Senate. During all this time the meetings of that body had been open to the public. Reporters were present, and the scheme was discussed in Irish journals of every different complexion of politics. Finally, the Governing Body forwarded the scheme to the Irish Office in London, and it was laid on the Table of that House. There had been a slight delay in circulating the scheme among hon. Members, but it was purely accidental. The new Governing Body could introduce hereafter any further proposition for the improvement of University education, but it was not fair to ask the University of Dublin to hold its hands until some persons unknown had found out a scheme which should be satisfactory, not only to the Protestant Dissenters and Roman Catholics who approved of the present one, but also to those Roman Catholics who would not concur in any plan of united education. Many attempts had been made to settle this question. Sir George Grey, as a Member of a Liberal Administration, and Lord Mayo, as Chief Secretary for Ireland under a Conservative Government, had failed—and failed for the same reason. The circumstances attendant upon the defeat of the Bill of last year were so fresh in the recollection of the House that it 1377 was unnecessary to dwell upon them. It had disorganized the Liberal party, and this attempt had also failed. If hon. Members opposite would not accept the present scheme, let them hereafter sub-nut some other proposal. It was now their turn to take the initiative, but let it be some distinct and vertebrate plan which might be discussed upon its own merits. The University of Dublin, he felt sure, would receive it in a Liberal spirit and that House would also give it fair and full consideration. The heads of that University were anxious to aid in carrying out a mixed system of education, and to throw every honour and advantage open to students of all religious denominations. They had already done so, and they were resolved to continue in the same course. He might slate, at the same time, that with regard to the College Chapel, it was the intention of the Governing Body that the services of religion should be maintained, although it was likely the Protestants would have to maintain those chapel services at their own expense. Under the new state of things, the students could not be compelled to attend chapel. It had been said by an hon. Member that that scheme would be the last that would be heard of University reform; but there was no ground for such an apprehension. The history of Trinity College was one of wise and well-considered changes, and he did not doubt that the present scheme would be the cradle of further reforms. Other alterations would, no doubt, be necessary to give full effect to the Act of last year, and with its more popular elements the new Governing Body would become still stronger and adopt all desirable reforms in due time. He would ask the House to allow the Queen's Letter to come into operation, because it was the spontaneous demand of the Governing Body for the purpose of carrying out reforms. Nothing could be more prejudicial to the interests of learning than that the question should be held over for another Session, creating divisions within the walls of the College and a painful agitation outside them. To support the Motion of the hon. and learned Member (Mr. Butt) would be to hold out an invitation to disquiet, and would prejudically affect the cause of University education in Ireland.

§ MR. MITCHELL HENRY
contended that the system of education which now prevailed in Ireland, had been introduced from without, and that it was opposed to the wishes of the majority of the people in the country, as well as to those of the minority; opposed to the feelings of the Roman Catholics, as well as to those of the Protestants. He believed that the Protestants of Ireland were as anxious as the Roman Catholics for religious education. With regard to the changes which had been introduced into the University of Dublin, for the purpose of admitting Roman Catholics, he could only advise the House to allow that matter to remain as it was at present. It was impossible to suppose that this Queen's Letter could ever settle the question of education in Ireland. The more imperfect that settlement was at the present moment, the louder would become the demand for a clear and more comprehensive experiment in future. The people of Ireland had a right to settle the religious education they desired, and it was absurd to imagine that because England and Scotland were Protestant, the Roman Catholics of Ireland should agree to their settling the question on the basis of secularism. The Protestants of Ireland were quite as much dissatisfied with the Queen's Letter as the Roman Catholics; and he would suggest that it should be sent back to the University, so that a wiser and more comprehensive scope might be given to it. Residents in Ireland did not, in many cases, educate their children in the Dublin University, because they knew that promotion there was so slow. These were questions interesting, not only to the Roman Catholics, but to the Protestants of Ireland, and it would be better for the Government to investigate the matter, send the Letter back for reconsideration, and when it came up again, to give it that consideration which its importance demanded. The hon. Member for Hackney (Mr. Fawcett) himself had admitted that it was an imperfect document and an inadequate settlement of the question. He was, therefore, surprised that the hon. Member should wish it to be issued in that hasty way. So long as the Governing-Body proceeded bit by bit in the way of reform, what peace could be hoped for in that seat of learning. He had always looked on with wonder at the course 1379 pursued by the hon. Member on the subject of University Reform in Ireland. It was incomprehensible to him how a statesman of his wide sympathies and extended views could shut his eyes to the fact that secularism was just as much a religion as any form of denominationalism. No one adopted pure secularism, but everyone advocated Bible teaching of some kind, and he regarded all the attempts of well-meaning men to provide a sort of neutral, moral, and religious training, as specimens of unconscious self-deception. In Ireland, they had the Protestants and the Roman Catholics competing with each other for the secular and religious education of the youth of the country, for both of them valued religious training, and no one ventured to propose to cast religion out altogether. The Protestants knew right well that they had all the material endowments in their own hands, and they accepted the aid of the secularists of England, not because they loved them, but because, by their assistance, they could "keep the promise to the ear, and break it to the hope." Trinity College, Dublin, had boon governed by a small Council of seven and the Provost. That Council had the whole power and finances in its hands. Many of the Junior Fellows had been 25 or 30 years in that position, and they could not take part in the government of the University. Promotion, indeed, was so slow that the intellect of the University was being drained off to this country. Formerly some of the Fellows received livings which were in the gift of the College. That had ceased since the passing of the Irish Church Act; but the Commissioners had paid Trinity College the sum of £150,000 as compensation for the loss of patronage. It was naturally expected that that sum would be utilized in quickening promotion. Some of the Senior Fellows received from £1,500 to £ 1,800 a-year, although they did nothing in the way of teaching, and took no active part in the proper business of a University. A proposal for their retirement had been brought before the Senate and shelved, and the Queen's Letter did not touch that vital question of the quickening of promotion, and so long as human nature remained what it was, he anticipated no thorough and effectual reform from within. He looked with great pain to the future of the Univer- 1380 sity, if all that could be done in the way of reforming after six days' debate was to be found within this Letter. It would be a sad day for Ireland if the intellectual power of the country followed the steps of the bone and sinew of the land, and migrated to places whore there was a better chance of success. Trinity College had been unjustly and derisively called the "Silent Sister," let her beware that the selfishness and inertia of her rulers did not, ere long, make the appellation more true in the future than it had been in the past.