HC Deb 04 August 1874 vol 221 cc1301-7
MR. W. H. SMITH,

in rising to move that the Contract entered into with the Royal Mail Steam Packet Company for the conveyance of Mails to and from the West Indies be approved, said, this contract had been entered into to effect a service very nearly the same as that which was now conducted for a much larger sum of money. The only omission from this contract was that of the service to Mexico. The subsidy to be paid under this contract was £84,750, as against a payment at present of £172,914, and the contract was to continue for five years. Her Majesty's Government had advertised for tenders, and besides that received from the Royal Mail Steam Packet Company, a second had been received from Messrs. Alfred Holt and Company for £129,000, and a third from another West India Steam Company for £120,000. It would be satisfactory to the House to know that the very serious loss sustained by the public as between the postage realized by the Post Office and the amount paid to the Company was now reduced almost to nothing—at least, it would not amount to more than £12,000 or £14,000 a-year, instead of £80,000 or £90,000. He was perfectly ready to answer all questions, and would now simply move that the contract be approved.

Motion made, and Question proposed, That the Contract entered into with the Royal Mail Steam Packet Company for the conveyance of Mails to and from the "West Indies be approved."—(Mr. William Henry Smith.)

MR. D. JENKINS

said, he would not oppose the Motion, but he must object to contracts entered into for so long a period. He could understand that the Company would say that new ships would have to be built for the new contract. That argument might have done well 20 years ago, but would not apply to the present day, as those ships were now built for carrying cargo, and not for mails.

Motion agreed to.

MR. W. H. SMITH

moved— That the further Contract between the Postmaster General and the Royal Mail Steam Packest Company, under which it is provided that the Vessels of the Royal Mail Steam Packet Company shall call at Plymouth on their homeward voyage to land the Mails, he approved. The hon. Member said, he had received memorials from various influential commercial bodies representing that there was an important omission in the contract with the Company, which had been formally settled by the late Government, in not requiring the vessels to call at Plymouth. To Manchester, Liverpool, and other northern towns which had a large correspondence with the West Indies it made a difference in some cases of 24 hours, and in all of 12 hours, whether the steamers called at a western port before reaching Southampton, and therefore to secure the earlier delivery of letters in the provinces, the Government felt it necessary to call upon the Royal Mail Steam Packet Company to continue to call at Plymouth. They were asked to do so without further charge; but they represented that the reduction they had made was so large that they could not incur the additional cost of calling at Plymouth without an addition to their subsidy. Therefore, the Government thought it right to sanction an additional contract for the payment of £2,000 for calling with the homeward mails at Plymouth for the five years the original contract had to run.

Motion made, and Question proposed, That the further Contract between the Postmaster General and the Royal Mail Steam Packet Company, under which it is provided that the "Vessels of the Royal Mail Steam Packet Company shall call at Plymouth on their home-ward voyage to land the Mails, he approved."—(Mr. William Henry Smith.)

MR. D. JENKINS

contended that the delivery of the mails would be accelerated by the substitution of the more westerly port of Falmouth for that of Plymouth. It was said that there was but a single line of railway between Falmouth and Plymouth; but a portion of the line between Exeter and Plymouth was also a single line. If advantage was gained by landing at a western port it must be increased by calling at the most westerly port, and, in the merchant service, for one vessel that called at Plymouth for orders, or to land despatches, 50 called at Falmouth. That would not be the case if it were not the better port so far as the saving of time was concerned. The matter had been under discussion 30 or 40 years, and the evidence given before a Committee of this House in 1840 by Captain Evans and Captain Plumley, of the Royal Navy, was conclusive in favour of Falmouth as against Plymouth. Falmouth was between 40 and 50 miles west of Plymouth, and steamships made for the Lizard Point, in passing which they were within three or four miles of the entrance to Falmouth harbour. There was a railway parallel with the sea-coast, and it was absurd to assume that a steamship could traverse the distance in the same time as a railway train. Largo sums of money had been expended at Falmouth in constructing docks, in deepening the harbour, and in connecting the railway with the landing stage, in the reasonable hope that the Government would, in the public interests, select Falmouth as the port of call, seeing that it was connected by railway with all parts of the Kingdom. In conclusion, he moved, as an Amendment, that so much of the West India Mail Contract as authorized the sum of £2,000 per annum for calling at Plymouth with the homeward Mails be not sanctioned.

MR. YOUNG,

in seconding the Amendment, said that, unlike the Mover, he had no connection with Falmouth, but thought, if there were to be a port of call it had better be the most westerly port, and he was, therefore, for going to Falmouth at once.

Amendment proposed, To leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "so much of the West India Mail Contract as authorises the sum of £2,000 per annum for calling at Plymouth with the homeward Mails he not sanctioned,"—(Mr. David Jenkins,)

—instead thereof.

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."

MR. BATES

said, the hon. Member was mistaken in supposing that when this question was discussed before, it was merely with reference to the respective merits of Southampton and Plymouth, the point discussed having been whether Southampton, Plymouth, or Falmouth should be selected. The Committee which sat to consider the question unanimously came to the conclusion that Plymouth was the best place at which the mails could be landed, and consequently the mails had been landed at that port since 1869. The late Government in drawing up the new contract had accidentally substituted Southampton for Plymouth as the place for landing the mails, and he having pointed out the mistake and numerous Petitions from Liverpool and other commercial centres in favour of Plymouth having been received the mistake was remedied. He did not think that for the sake of effecting a saving of £2,000 per annum, commercial men would consent to receive their letters by these mails 24 hours later than they did at present, which would be the result of landing the mails at Falmouth instead of at Plymouth. Falmouth was a very good and a very nice port; but it could not compare for convenience with Plymouth, which vessels could enter at all times of the tide and in any state of the weather. Under these circumstances, he did not think the hon. Member would seriously press his Motion.

MR. T. E. SMITH

said, he thought the opinions that had been expressed were somewhat affected by geographical influences. As an unbiassed Member, it appeared to him strange that Her Majesty's Government should be willing to pay £2,000 per annum additional for having the mails landed at a port, the convenience of which mercantile men did not recognize. He trusted the hon. Member for Penryn and Falmouth would go to a division on the subject.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

expressed Ms regret that the Postmaster General, being confined to his house by rather severe indisposition, was unable to be present on that occasion, seeing that no one was able to enter so fully into the subject as be could do. As far as the Treasury bad received information on the matter, it appeared that the contract having been originally made to land the mails at Southampton, commercial gentlemen residing in Scotland and the North of England thought they would be prejudiced by the consequent delay in the delivery of their letters, and a large number of memorials, signed by gentlemen of considerable standing and eminence in the commercial world, were presented to the Postmaster General and to the Treasury on the subject. The effect of these memorials was to induce the Treasury to accede to the proposal of the Postmaster General that this additional sum of £2,000 per annum should be paid in order to enable the mails to be landed at Plymouth instead of Southampton. The hon. Member for Penryn and Falmouth had now, with laudable zeal, put in his claim on behalf of the constituency he represented, and certainly no one who knew the West of England, and especially Falmouth, would fail to appreciate the merits of that port, with the charms of which he was personally acquainted. But, at the same time, not one of the memorials to which he had referred had suggested that Falmouth should be selected as the port for landing the mails; and, doubtless, the Postmaster General had been influenced in his decision in favour of Plymouth by that fact, and also by the fact that there was only a single line of rails running eastward from the former place, the traffic on which was of a very slow character. He thought the feeling of the House would be entirely in favour of the decision of the Postmaster General, who had no interest whatever in selecting one of these ports rather than another.

MR. ANDERSON

said, there could be no doubt that in the preparation of this second contract a great mistake had been made by the Government. Notwithstanding that in the late contract there was no stipulation to call at a western port, still, when the new contract came up, the Government forgot altogether about a former omission. The Company took advantage of that, and the Government had had to alter the contract in order to get the mails delivered at Plymouth, as they were before. If it were a question between Plymouth and Falmouth, he should have nothing to say; but it was a question between Plymouth and Southampton. If the mails were landed at Southampton, the whole of the northern letters would be a day later in being delivered. The question was between paying £2,000 a-year, or having the northern letters delivered 24 hours later; and, under the circumstances, he should vote for paying the £2,000.

MR. SAMPSON LLOYD

observed, that the £2,000 was paid not because the mails were delivered at Plymouth, but because they were delivered at some port other than Southampton; and there were serious objections to Falmouth and Southampton which did not apply to Plymouth. He would remind hon. Members that a Committee of the House of Commons had decided in favour of Ply-mouth, and he hoped, under these circumstances, the Amendment would not be accepted, especially as by making Plymouth the port of call the people of Glasgow and the North of England would receive their letters several hours earlier.

MR. HERMON

said, it was he and others, who had urged the Government to land the mails at Plymouth, who were chiefly to blame for the decision in the matter which had been arrived at. If it could be shown that if the mails were landed at Falmouth they would be received in the North of England 12 hours earlier, he should be happy to give the hon. Member for that borough his support on a future occasion.

MR. LYON PLAYFAIR

pointed out that the tenders were open tenders, and that the Company having proposed to start from Southampton on more favourable terms than could be obtained from others, the proposal was accepted. Subsequently, memorials had been received pointing out the importance of Plymouth. The Supplementary Vote was one which, under the circumstances, he thought the House would do well to assent to.

Ms. D. JENKINS

said, he would withdraw his Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Main Question put, and agreed to. Resolved, That the further Contract between the Postmaster General and the Royal Mail Steam Packet Company, under which it is provided that the Vessels of the Royal Mail Steam Packet Companyshall call at Plymouth on their homeward voyage to laud the Mails, be approved.