§ (In the Committee.)
§ (1.) £48,100, Divine Service.
§ COLONEL NORTHinquired whether some mode could not be devised for the reward of those chaplains for the Forces who had accompanied the Gold Coast Expedition. They could not be promoted unless the number of chaplains was augmented, and suggested whether some of the Crown livings might not be very properly and usefully devoted to that purpose? The chaplains who had accompanied the troops in Ashantee, he understood, had admirably performed their duty.
MR. GATHORNE HARDY, in reply, said, that the principle of selection, with a view to promotion, was never applied in the case of chaplains of the Forces, and that it was not the practice to raise one chaplain above the others, by exceptional advancement, for service in the field. Moreover, he was afraid that the livings at the disposal of the Crown were very few indeed, and as his right hon. Friend who had the disposal of them was not present, his hon. and gallant Friend would see that no answer could be given to that part of the Question.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ (2.) £26,300, Administration of Military Law.
§ COLONEL BARTTELOTpointed out that while there was a decrease in the other details of this Vote, the same sum was put down for the apprehension of deserters.
MR. GATHORNE HARDYsaid, the amount in question was an annually increasing item of expenditure. The apparent inconsistency arose in consequence of certain new arrangements as to the mode of keeping the accounts.
§ COLONEL NORTH, in calling attention to cases of soldiers who, whilst really guilty of desertion, were, under the existing system, only tried for being absent without leave, and therefore did not forfeit the advantages accruing to long service and good conduct, said, he wished to refer to the case of a man belonging to the Coast Guard, who, although he had been away from duty from July 8, 1872, till March 27, 1874, had been tried, not for desertion, but for absence without leave, and had been 527 allowed to reckon that period of a year and nine months in his "good service." He believed that two-thirds of the men in the Army who were punished for absence without leave ought properly to be tried by court-martial for desertion. One man had actually joined 13 regiments and got 13 bounties, which never would have happened had he been tried at first for desertion.
§ MR. STEPHEN CAVEsaid, he was aware of the case to which reference had been made, and of others which were not, perhaps, quite so bad. A practice had grown up of trying men for absence without leave rather than for desertion, and it arose in some measure from an opinion that, as familiarity with crime led to crime, so if men became accustomed to constant trials for desertion, they would come to consider it a venial offence. Yet, if they were to search for motives, it would be found impossible to suppose that a man, who stayed away for two years, did not intend to desert. With the information he had obtained, he quite agreed that such a case as the one to which the gallant officer alluded was carrying the theory too far. It often happened that a soldier lost all the advantages of good conduct badges on account of some petty larceny he had committed, while the man who had undoubtedly been guilty of desertion might, if tried by a regimental court-martial for absence without leave, retain those rewards. It seemed to him that this might cause a great deal of injustice, and he thought that when a man was undoubtedly a deserter he should be tried for the offence which he had actually committed.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ (3.) £243,200, Medical Establishments and Services.
§ COLONEL NORTHexpressed a hope that the number of good-service pensions in this department would be increased. There were at present only eight of them, and the number of officers was 943; three had received the honour of a K.C.B., 32 had been made Companions of the Bath, and no fewer than nine had received the Victoria Cross; 84 medical officers had served with the Gold Coast Expedition. The officers of the Marines, who were fewer in number, enjoyed more good-service pensions, and without wishing in any way 528 to depreciate the services of that gallant little army, yet he thought it was impossible not to be struck with the heroism and devotion of the medical officers in the late expedition.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ (4.) £738,500 Militia Pay and Allowances.
§ MR. NAGHTEN, in advocating a higher rate of bounty and pay for Militiamen, said, that in consequence of the inadequacy of the present scale they were fast losing men. If a man enlisted now under the present system, by the substitution of six years' service for five, he would get less by £5 16s. than he would have obtained under the old system in 13 years' service. Now, Militiamen were not quite such fools as some supposed them to be, and they could not see any benefit accruing from the reduction of the bounty. Efficiency combined with true economy was a very good thing, but the Militia were by no means as efficient as they might be. He urged that with regard to pensions to the permanent staff there should be greater liberality on the part of the War Department, with the view of enabling men who had been long in the two Services to retire. At present the Colonels had not the heart to recommend those men their discharge. For the staff sergeants he would suggest an increase of pension after 10, instead of at 20 years' service, with a graduated scale. As to the adjutants, he thought they were very hardly treated. Some of them had come out of the ranks; they were picked out as intelligent men, and after having given the best of their time to the service an allowance should be given to them which would induce them to retire, but that was not the case. He trusted that the present Government would not carry out the whole of Lord Cardwell's scheme, as it would not give satisfaction to the Army. In his opinion the training of Artillery Militia was not long enough, as he believed they might be made a very useful force. He would suggest that for Artillery Militia a longer training than at present should be the rule, and that they should be allowed the use of the guns at the different forts along the coast. In case of invasion they would then be able to fall into their places, and know all about the guns 529 they would have to use. For years past they had practised only with obsolete smooth-bore guns, and when one year, one of the two 32-pounders assigned to them was dismounted by an accident to the carriage, they had to finish their practice with one gun only. In speaking of Reserves, also, it should not be forgotten that the Militia Artillery alone mustered about 20,000 men, and if properly drilled would prove a most important force in case of invasion. He hoped the House would not forget how useful the Militia proved in the Crimean War and in the Indian Mutiny, at which latter period his (Mr. Naghten's) regiment supplied the nucleus for a new brigade of Artillery. In fact, the Militia ought to be made a national force and a nursery for the Army. He was glad to have some reason for believing that the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War intended to devote greater attention to this branch of the service, so as to render it more efficient and useful than heretofore.
§ GENERAL SIR GEORGE BALFOURthought an explanatory Appendix would be found a serviceable addition towards the comprehension of the Estimates.
§ COLONEL BARTTELOTsaid, he had on a former occasion called attention to the subject of the promotion of officers from the Militia into the Line and asked his right hon. Friend to consider the matter. A letter from an "Officer in the Militia" had since been published, stating that he had been mistaken. But the statement he made was this—that two young gentlemen went up for examination, of whom the one passed exceedingly well and entered the Army as a sub-lieutenant, the other had been plucked, but afterwards was promoted from the Militia into the same regiment of the Line as lieutenant over the head of the man who had passed the successful examination. The other day he was in a railway carriage with some gentlemen of his acquaintance, and this matter became the subject of conversation. A young gentleman, with whom he was not acquainted, hearing what was said, remarked that it was a very hard case, and then told his own story. "I was twice 'ploughed,'" said he. "I went up with a friend of mine, who passed admirably. He got nearly the highest marks. We are both now in a most distinguished regiment. I have passed 530 in from the Militia, and am a lieutenant, while he is only a sub-lieutenant in the same regiment, and I venture to say he is a much more able man than I am." He (Colonel Barttelot) had letters from officers commanding districts and others, stating that if this system were allowed to go on it would create a feeling of discontent which it would be difficult to allay. He ventured to recommend this matter to the earnest consideration of his right hon. Friend, for it was important that no rivalry should be allowed between the Militia and the Line; the great object was to make the Militia as efficient as possible. The Secretary of State for War had remarked the other night that the numbers of the Militia were not as satisfactory as he could desire. But that was not extraordinary, seeing that the men were now receiving for six years' service what they used to get before for five; and if any one would read the letters which had appeared in The Times from Lord Charles Kerr and others, he would see that the present state of the Militia was very unsatisfactory, for from them it appeared that in consequence of the change in the bounty, a Militia regiment had lost half its strength. [Mr. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN dissented.] the hon. Gentleman opposite shook his head. Would he say the statements were incorrect? [Mr. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: They are incomplete.] It was not very likely that a man would write a letter taking up two columns in The Times and yet leave his statements incomplete. He would like to ask his right hon. Friend whether he had made any inquiries as to the men in the Militia Reserve being fit to take their places side by side with the Reserve of the Line. His right hon. Friend would probably find this Reserve not as efficient as it ought to be. Then, again, Lord Cardwell proposed that an adjutant should do duty for two regiments. But could there be anything more injurious to the service than that? We were told that a man could not serve two masters. But here was a man who would have to serve under two masters, the colonels of two different regiments. Then, with regard to musketry instructors, what was proposed? The weak point of the Militia was their musketry instruction and firing, for they never had acquired in this respect the efficiency of the Volunteers or the Line; but now it was 531 proposed to have only one musketry instructor between two regiments, which would destroy anything like emulation between them. To have but one adjutant and one musketry instructor for two regiments would be a fatal thing and would reduce the Militia to a condition far inferior to what they were in at present, and unless proper facilities were given for carrying out practice, a serious responsibility would rest upon the Government.
§ MR. CAMPBELL-BANNERMANsaid, with respect to the change in the Militia bounty, he had remarked that the statements on the subject, however accurate as far as they went, were very incomplete, He saw the letter signed by Lord Charles Kerr, and it appeared to him very extraordinary that an adjutant of Militia, responsible for the recruiting of his regiment, should without any representation to the War Office, have addressed such a sensational communication to The Times. conveying a very one-sided notion of the facts. With regard to what he had stated the other night, he had satisfied himself that the Militia recruit gained more by the arrangements with respect to the ration stoppage than he lost by the change in the bounty system. As to a certain Militia regiment having fallen from 1,000 men to 500, that could hardly be attributed to the change in the bounty system, which was announced only two months ago. The hon. and gallant Member for West Sussex (Colonel Barttelot) knew quite well that it was all along contemplated to replace the permanent staff of the Militia by officers and non-commissioned officers of Line regiments located at the depôt centre, and that duty they could do as well for two battalions as for one, more especially when it was considered that those battalions were trained at distinct times. That, he considered, could not be deemed to be serving two masters. As to one musketry instructor for two battalions, if there was any benefit in musketry competition, which he sometimes doubted, it was desirable to have them instructed by one man. The work would be done under the officers of the Line regiment, stationed at the brigade depôt; and in case of any clashing of time, an additional officer would have to be employed.
MR. GATHORNE HARDYsaid, he would at once admit the existence of a 532 curious difficulty as to sub-lieutenants, but it was in some degree redressed by a subsequent process. On the sub-lieutenant becoming a lieutenant, his commission was ante-dated a year or two years, according to the examination he had passed, and he would very likely thus rank above the man who had come in while he was a sub-lieutenant. That shifting, however, was not a good thing, and there were difficulties in it. He would see whether it could be put on a footing fair to both parties. It would be necessary for him to introduce a Bill respecting the pay and clothing of the Militia. At present an Act regulating this was annually passed as a matter of form, but the dispensing with this form would not affect the control of Parliament over the force. With regard to the suggestion of the hon. and gallant Member for Kincardineshire, it was undesirable to swell the bulk of the Army Estimates, but such Returns as were desired he would endeavour to procure.
§ MR. CAMPBELL-BANNERMANwished the hon. Member for Winchester (Mr. Naghten) to understand that he did not blame the Militia for not comprehending that they would gain by the stoppage of rations the pay and clothing being fixed by Act of Parliament, it was impossible to announce the other parts of the plan simultaneously with the alteration in the term of service which Parliament had sanctioned, and on which future recruiting must be founded. Steps were taken, though unfortunately rather late, to announce what was intended, since which there had, he trusted, been no misapprehension.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ (5.) £78,900, Yeomanry Cavalry.
§ (6.) £430,800, Volunteer Corps.
§ COLONEL BARTTELOTremarked that the allowance for travelling expenses made to adjutants in the Volunteer service was only 5s. against 10s. allowed to be paid to adjutants in the Militia, and asked that the same allowance might be made to both parties. He regretted that the recent amalgamation of battalions had involved the discharge of many sergeant-majors. The correspondence of the adjutants was so much increased that the second sergeant-major, where there had been two, might 533 well be employed as an orderly-room clerk.
§ MR. STANLEYsaid, the allowances to adjutants were under consideration, and it was intended to assimilate those of adjutants in the auxiliary forces as far as possible to those in the Line. As to the amalgamation alluded to by his hon. and gallant Friend, it was intended to consolidate, because it was most desirable to avoid keeping up so many separate corps whose numbers were decreasing, and likewise to avoid the unnecessary expense of adjutants appointed when the numbers in the various corps were much higher than they were now. His right hon. Friend would endeavour to act with duo regard to all parties, and to local considerations.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ (7.) £121,700, Army Reserve Force (including Enrolled Pensioners).
§ (8.) £368,100, Control Establishments, Wages, &c.
§ GENERAL SIR GEORGE BALFOUR, while approving the change, suggested that in future particulars of the Vote should be given more in detail.
§ MR. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN, having had something to do with the transfer of these charges, explained that while the formation of a pay department had been resolved on, the scheme had not yet been submitted in a revised form to the Treasury. Next year it would doubtless be set forth in the Estimates.
§ MR. STANLEYstated that at an early date the proposals would be fully determined on, and the fullest information would be given hereafter.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ (9.) £2,960,800, Provisions, Forage, &c.
§ (10.) £743,100, Clothing Establishments. Services, and Supplies.
§ (11.) £970,000, Supply, Manufacture, and Repair of Warlike and other Stores.
GENERAL, Sir GEORGE BALFOURcongratulated the right hon. Gentleman upon the great reduction which had taken place in the Vote for warlike stores, and thought that it might be reduced still lower. No greater evil could possibly happen to an Army than to have an abundance of stores of old and useless articles. He urged the desirability, on economical grounds, that an 534 entire separation should be made between stores for the Army and stores for the Navy. Until that was accomplished there could never be any real economy in the two branches of the Service.
MR. GATHORNE HARDYsaid, the principle which the Treasury had laid down in all the Estimates was this—that the Department having control of the expenditure should bring the charge into their Estimates. It struck him that when they came to investigate the subject it would be found almost impossible to separate the charge for transport, for instance, required by one Service from what was required by the other. The subject had been carefully considered, and the only safe principle appeared to be that laid down by the Treasury.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ (12.) £761,300, Works, Buildings, and Repairs.
§ COLONEL NORTH, in recommending that the houses occupied by general officers, as in Chelsea Hospital and at Portsmouth, Devonport, and Chatham, should be furnished by the Government, and that officers should be charged a percentage on the outlay, as was the case under the Admiralty, said, that nearly twenty years ago he had brought this subject under the consideration of the House, and he thought some change was necessary. Take the case of Chelsea Hospital. The governorship of that institution had been vacant three times in three years. Sir John Pennefather had told him that it cost him £1,600 to get into the house then, though he only occupied it a year and nine months. Sir Sydney Cotton had to go through the same performance, though he only occupied the house a year and eight months. He hoped his right hon. Friend would give the matter his earnest consideration, so that such anomalous cases might not recur.
ADMIRAL ELLIOTbelieved the country would gain very much by the alteration, which would at the same time be a great boon to officers.
§ LORD EUSTACE CECILsaid, that the arrangement proposed by his hon. and gallant Friend might be more economical than that now existing. The subject was one of great detail; but he would give his best attention to it, and he trusted that some satisfactory conclusion might be arrived at.
§ Vote agreed to.
535§ (13.) £135,200, Military Education.
§
(14.) Motion made, and Question proposed,
That a sum, not exceeding. £31,400, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge for Miscellaneous Services, which will come in course of payment from the 1st day of April 1874 to the 31st day of March 1875, inclusive.
§ MR. GOURLEYsaid, he took exception to the amount expended in carrying out the provisions of the Contagious Diseases Acts, and would move that the Vote be reduced by that amount.
§
Motion made, and Question proposed,
That the Item of £6,603, for the Expenses arising from the Contagious Diseases Prevention Acts, be omitted from the proposed Vote."—(Mr. Gourlcy.)
MR. GATHORNE HARDYsaid, he would not detain the Committee long upon this very unsavoury and disagreeable subject, but the hon. Member for Sunderland (Mr. Gourley) had taken the extraordinary course of moving an Amendment to compel the War Office to cut off the money necessary to carry out an Act of Parliament without repealing the Act itself. Now, if there were any body bound to obey the law, it was the Government. He had made inquiry into the working of these Acts, and he had found that the cases arising in towns which were under the Act were about 9 per 1,000, while in towns in which the Acts were in operation they only amounted to about 4 per 1,000. This was a proof that something was done, and so long as the Acts were in force he trusted that the House would vote the money to carry them out.
§ Question put, and negatived.
§ Original Question put, and agreed to.
§ (15.) £205,900, Administration of the Army.
§ (16.) £34,000. Rewards for Distinguished Services.
§ (17.) £81,600, Pay of General Officers.
§ (18.) £521,100, Full Ray and Half Pay of Reduced and Retired Officers.
§ (19.) £146,800, Widows' Pensions, &c.
§ (20.) £16,300, Pensions for Wounds.
§
(21.) Motion made, and Question proposed,
That a sum, not exceeding. £36,100, he granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge for Chelsea and Kilmainham Hospitals (Inpensions), which will come in course of payment from the 1st day of April 1874 to the 81st day of March 1875, inclusive.
§ CAPTAIN NOLAN, in moving to reduce the Vote by the sum of £200, said, it appeared that the Protestant chaplain at Kilmainham received a salary of £250 per annum, whereas £50 per annum was the entire sum paid to the Roman Catholic priest who ministered to the spiritual wants of the in-pensioners of his own creed. This disparity was increased from the fact that those pensioners far out-numbered their Protestant brethren. He would much rather, if the forms of the House permitted, move to increase the salary of the Roman Catholic chaplain to the same amount which was paid the Protestant chaplain; but as he could not do that, it was only by the reduction of that gentleman's salary he could bring about the equality which he wished to see established.
§
Motion made, and Question proposed,
That the I tern of £250, for the Chaplain at, Kilmainham Hospital, he omitted from the proposed Vote."—(Captain Nolun.)
§ MR. STANLEYhoped that the hon. and gallant Member would not persevere with his Motion as he thought the salary could not be reduced under the terms upon which the hospital had been founded. Not only that, but it had been paid, without question, for a great many years, and it would be unjust to alter it now at a moment's notice. A Committee had two years ago carefully inquired into the state of the two hospitals in question, and they had recommended no modification of the salaries of the chaplains. Kilmainham Hospital afforded a great deal of relief to a large number of men who had served their country, and as regarded the question of percentage it varied from time to time.
§ SIR HENRY HAVELOCKsaid, that from his local knowledge, he wished to point out that, although the number of Roman Catholics in Kilmainham during the week might be greater than the number of Protestants, yet that on Sundays the state of things was reversed, inasmuch as the Protestant chaplain had the troops from the barracks in the neighbourhood to minister to.
MR. GATHORNE HARDYsaid, the case was as stated by the hon. and gallant Member who had just sat down; but oven if it were not so, he did not see how the Committee could, until the next I vacancy occurred, reduce the salary of I the Protestant chaplain, as his was a 537 permanent appointment. There was no Roman Catholic clergyman holding a similar appointment, and he believed that the higher authorities of that Church in Ireland preferred that the regular parish clergyman should attend the members of his own flock. He was not sure whether or no this was the case at Kilmainham; but knowing that such was the case elsewhere he rather thought it. If it were, the salary of the Roman Catholic chaplain might be considered an addition to the resources of the parish priest in these cases.
MR. OWEN LEWISthought that some arrangement might be come to which would be fair and satisfactory to all parties.
§ SIR HENRY HAVELOCKalso thought that an arrangement might be come to which would meet equally the demands of all denominations by a portion of one of the numerous rooms in the hospital being fitted up for the use of the Roman Catholics on Sundays.
MR. GATHORNE HARDYsaid, the hon. and gallant Member had started a proposition which was entirely foreign to the Amendment. However, if a proper representation were made, he had no objection to give the matter a fair consideration at the proper time; but he trusted that the hon. and gallant Member, who had moved the Amendment, would withdraw it.
§ Motion, by leave, withdrawn. Original Question put, and agreed to.
§ (22.) £1,158,600, Out Pensions.
§ (23.) £172,100, Superannuation Allowances.
§ (24.) £20,900, Non-Effective Services for Militia, Yeomanry Cavalry, and Volunteer Corps.
§ House resumed.
§ Resolutions to be reported upon Thurs-day.
§ Committee to sit again upon Wednesday.