§ (In the Committee.)
§ (1.) That a sum, not exceeding £26,338 11s. 8d., be granted to Her Majesty, to make good Excesses of Expenditure beyond the Grants for the following Civil Services for the year ended on the 31st day of March 1872, viz.:—
| Class I. | |||
| £ | s. | d. | |
| Furniture of Public Offices | 67 | 12 | 0 |
| Industrial Museum, Edinburgh | 220 | 16 | 2 |
| British Museum Buildings | 541 | 6 | 3 |
| Portland Harbour | 2 | 12 | 8 |
| British Embassy Houses, Paris and Madrid | 1,106 | 18 | 0 |
| St. Paul's Cathedral: National Thanksgiving | 378 | 1 | 6 |
| Class II. | |||
| £ | s. | d. | |
| Foreign Office | 81 | 9 | 11 |
| Charity Commission | 69 | 10 | 10 |
| Poor Law Commission, England | 408 | 19 | 4 |
| Office of Works and Public Buildings | 1,038 | 14 | 4 |
| Household of the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland | 100 | 19 | 0 |
| Class III. | |||
| Court of Chancery, England | 4 | 2 | 0 |
| County Courts | 16,172 | 17 | 8 |
| Land Registry Office | 2 | 8 | 1 |
| Court of Probate, Ireland | 123 | 19 | 10 |
| Registry of Judgments, Ireland | 18 | 16 | 10 |
| County Prisons, Ireland | 1,537 | 7 | 9 |
| Class IV. | |||
| Universities, &c. in Scotland | 121 | 0 | 3 |
| Class VII. | |||
| Temporary Commissions | 4,340 | 19 | 3 |
| £26,338 | 11 | 8 |
§ GENERAL SIR GEORGE BALFOURobjected to the money being obtained without explanation after so long a time had elapsed.
§ MR. BAXTERsaid, the Vote was rendered necessary by the Exchequer and Audit Act. The Committee upstairs had recommended that these Excesses should be voted.
§ Vote agreed to.
§
(2.) Motion made, and Question proposed,
That a sum, not exceeding £209,551 8s. 1d., be granted to Her Majesty, to make good Excesses of Expenditure beyond the Grants for the following Revenue Departments for the year ending on the 31st day of March 1872, viz.:—
| £ | s. | d. | |
| Post Office | 37,775 | 10 | 0 |
| Post Office Telegraph Service | 171,775 | 18 | 1 |
| £209,551 | 8 | 1 |
MR. WHITEsaid, he felt it his duty to call attention to the first Report from the Committee on Public Accounts which had been delivered that morning. In connection with this Vote, and after the issue of the Report named, the Treasury Department ought to repent in sackcloth and ashes. There never was a more startling testimony to the inefficiency of our Administrative System in relation to a Departmental disbursement of public moneys than the Vote now asked for. A sum of £171,775 was required to make good the excess expended by the Post Office Telegraph Department for the year ended the 31st of March, 1872. That excess was attributed by the Post 2057 Office to an under estimate; but it was, in fact, the amount of an unauthorized expenditure or net deficit. It would seem from the Report that the existing elaborate and costly check of an Audit Office and Comptroller was practically valueless, the position of the Postmaster General was compromised, the National Debt Commissioners and their subordinates were all asleep, and that the control and responsibility of the Treasury for the due and regular conduct of the Revenue Departments were wholly illusory—indeed, an official figment. That was strong language; but it was entirely justified by the words of the Report, a few passages of which he proceeded to read. The Committee reported that the Comptroller and Auditor General observes—
That transfers of £644,936 had been made from the Telegraph Vote to capital account; that, by this means, the Department has escaped the necessity of submitting estimates for extensions and improvements, and the control of Parliament has been avoided," and further add that "having made inquiry of Mr. Scudamore on this point, it appears from his replies, that the proceeding thus commented upon with respect to previous transactions had been repeated during the last twelve months, and that the whole of the additional million of capital granted in 1871 having been spent, the Department, instead of applying to Parliament for a further grant, has continued its payments for extensions, &c., defraying the cost out of the balances in the hands of the Postmaster General; that £656,000 had been spent up to the end of November, 1872, and that a sum not far short of £800,000 will have been so expended before the end of the current financial year, and that a large proportion of this had been derived from Savings Banks Deposits. Your Committee do not hesitate to express the opinion that this wholesale expenditure out of the balances in anticipation of the Vote is in the highest degree irregular and objectionable, and appears to be in conflict with the provisions of the Telegraph and Savings Bank Acts, nor can they admit the plea of urgency, seeing that four years have now elapsed since the Telegraph Service was taken over by the Government; but further and still more important considerations arise, to which, though less directly within their functions, they desire to call the attention of the House of Commons.The unanimous decision of the Committee of Public Accounts was that—So long as the House of Commons claimed and exercised the exclusive guardianship of the public purse this question was one of the highest constitutional importance, and he felt confident that the Government would institute forthwith a searching and complete investigation into this flagrant default.
- "(1.) Under the present system, the Post Office would appear to have the uncontrolled power of dealing with balances to the extent probably of a million in excess of its legitimate requirements.
- "(2.) So far as those balances consist of Savings Banks Deposits, such dealings must be held to amount to misappropriation of a peculiarly serious character.
2058 - "(3.) If, as is understood, the National Debt Commissioners are constantly kept informed of the sums due to them, some strange defect of power or activity would seem to have interfered with their obvious duty of calling for the balances with a view to investment.
- "(4.) The check of the Audit Office, which is also supplied with monthly statements of receipt by the Postmaster General, must be imperfect, if not altogether nugatory.
- "(5.) The position of the Postmaster General is compromised if the secretary in his office can carry on such enormous operations by means of moneys for which he, as chief, is liable to account to the public.
- "(6.) Finally, what becomes of the control of the Treasury over a Revenue Department, for the due and regular conduct of which it is in the highest degree responsible, if such things can happen, not once, but repeatedly, and if the abstraction of such enormous sums from their legitimate destination can continue to be unnoticed throughout the whole of a financial year, even up to the time when the statement of the year's income is formally submitted to the public? The Treasury state they had no knowledge that the authorised capital had been exceeded; but it must be observed that the evidence taken by your Committee last year brought out the fact that such would inevitably be the case, while it was known to them that similar though less extensive transactions were covered by the grant of the additional million in 1871."
§ MR. SCLATER-BOOTHsaid, he had no intention to bring the subject before the House at that moment, but to have done so when the Vote on account of the Telegraph Service was taken, when he should have asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer to cause immediate inquiries to be made into the subject, and lay the result with any proposals he had to make before the Committee of Accounts, that they might inform the House what the right hon. Gentleman proposed. The Committee felt themselves bound to express their opinion in strong terms of the course that had been pursued in the Post Office Department—a Department that had large sums of money at its command, and which could be used without the knowledge or consent of Parliament.
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERpromised that a thorough inquiry 2059 should be instituted, and that the result should be laid before the Committee.
§ MR. FAWCETTsuggested that the Vote be postponed, as the question which had been raised was of a grave character calling for inquiry. He moved that the Chairman report Progress.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."—(Mr. Fawcett.)
§ MR. LIDDELLwas of opinion that the subject could be more satisfactorily dealt with by the Committee sitting upstairs than by a Committee of the Whole House. At all events, this was not the proper time to raise the question.
§ MR. RYLANDSsaid, he thought these excesses ought to be voted at once. The question now under consideration had no reference whatever to the large amount of expenditure which had been improperly incurred.
§ MR. BAXTERsaid, that in deference to the opinion expressed by the Committee, he would not propose the Vote on Account that evening. The question now before the Committee related solely to past expenditure.
§ MR. CANDLISHsaid, the passing of this Vote would not preclude discussion on the question raised by the senior Member for Brighton (Mr. White).
§ MR. LIDDELLsaid, that the great financial scandal disclosed in the Report of the Public Accounts Committee was sure to excite attention as soon as it came under the knowledge of the House. The Government had, however, given a fair and proper assurance that the whole matter should be the subject of a departmental inquiry. The Committee would therefore do well to pass the present Vote, which had been approved by the Controller and Auditor General, and in regard to which no irregularity was alleged.
§ MR. FAWCETTsaid, that it was just because a great financial scandal had been disclosed that he objected to vote an excess in the accounts of the Department which rested under that scandal. He should persist in dividing the Committee, because they ought not, at 1 o'clock in the morning, to vote a 2060 single penny to a Department thus discredited.
§ MR. BAXTERsaid, if the Committee refused the Vote they would be casting a slur not only upon the Audit Office, but also on the Committee of Public Accounts, which raised no objection to this Vote.
§ COLONEL BARTTELOTappealed to the Government not to press this Vote at 1 o'clock in the morning, after the great scandal that had been disclosed.
§ Question put.
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes 23 Noes 64: Majority 41.
§ Original Question put, and agreed to.
§
(3.) Motion made and Question proposed,
That a sum, not exceeding £1,842,000, be granted to Her Majesty, on account, for or towards defraying the Charge for the following Civil Services, to the 31st day of March 1874, viz.:—
| Class I. | |
| Great Britain:— | £ |
| Royal Palaces | 5,000 |
| Royal Parks | 17,000 |
| Public Buildings | 25,000 |
| Furniture of Public Offices | 2,500 |
| Houses of Parliament | 5,000 |
| New Home and Colonial Offices | 10,000 |
| Sheriff Court Houses, Scotland | 2,500 |
| National Gallery Enlargement | 7,000 |
| Glasgow University | 3,500 |
| Industrial Museum, Edinburgh | 1,500 |
| Burlington House | 5,000 |
| Post Office and Inland Revenue Buildings | 26,000 |
| British Museum Buildings | 1,000 |
| County Courts | 6,000 |
| Science and Art Department | 3,000 |
| Surveys of the United Kingdom | 22,000 |
| Harbours of Refuge | 3,000 |
| Portland Harbour | 50 |
| Metropolitan Fire Brigade | 2,500 |
| Rates on Government Property | 6,000 |
| Wellington Monument | 750 |
| Natural History Museum | 13,000 |
| Metropolitan Police Courts | 2,000 |
| New Courts of Justice, &c. | 11,000 |
| Anstruther Harbour | 1,500 |
| Ireland:— | |
| Public Buildings | 26,000 |
| Abroad:— | |
| Lighthouses Abroad | 4,000 |
| Embassy Houses, Paris and Madrid | 200 |
| Embassy Houses and Consular Buildings, Constantinople, China, Japan, and Tehran | 10,000 |
| Class II. | |
| England:— | |
| House of Lords, Offices | 7,500 |
| House of Commons, Offices | 8,000 |
| Treasury and Subordinate Departments | 9,500 |
| Home Office and Subordinate Departments | £ |
| 15,500 | |
| Foreign Office | 10,500 |
| Colonial Office | 5,300 |
| Privy Council Office and Subordinate Departments | 5,600 |
| Board of Trade and Subordinate Departments | 17,000 |
| Privy Seal Office | 500 |
| Charity Commission | 3,000 |
| Civil Service Commission | 3,500 |
| Copyhold, Inclosure, and Tithe Commission | 3,000 |
| Inclosure and Drainage Acts Expenses | 1,500 |
| Exchequer and Audit Department | 7,200 |
| Registrars of Friendly Societies | 400 |
| General Register Office | 9,300 |
| Local Government Board | 68,000 |
| Lunacy Commission | 2,500 |
| Mint | 8,500 |
| National Debt Office | 3,000 |
| Patent Office | 5,000 |
| Paymaster General's Office | 4,000 |
| Public Record Office | 3,800 |
| Public Works Loan Commission | 800 |
| Stationery Office and Printing | 73,000 |
| Woods, Forests, &c., Office of | 4,000 |
| Works and Public Buildings, Office of | 7,000 |
| Secret Service | 4,000 |
| Scotland:— | |
| Exchequer and Other Offices | 1,000 |
| Fishery Board | 2,000 |
| General Register Office | 1,500 |
| Lunacy Commission | 1,000 |
| Poor Law Commission | 3,000 |
| Ireland:— | |
| Lord Lieutenant's Household | 1,150 |
| Chief Secretary's Office | 5,000 |
| Boundary Survey | 50 |
| Charitable Donations and Bequests Office | 400 |
| General Register Office | 4,600 |
| Poor Law Commission | 18,000 |
| Public Record Office | 900 |
| Public Works Office | 4,500 |
| Class III. | |
| England:— | |
| Law Charges | 9,000 |
| Criminal Prosecutions | 32,000 |
| Court of Chancery | 28,500 |
| Common Law Courts | 10,000 |
| Court of Bankruptcy | 6,300 |
| County Courts | 73,000 |
| Probate Court | 15,000 |
| Admiralty Court Registry | 2,000 |
| Land Registry Office | 900 |
| Police Courts, London and Sheerness | 2,300 |
| Metropolitan Police | 38,500 |
| County and Borough Police, Great Britain | 20,000 |
| Convict Establishments in England and the Colonies | 75,000 |
| County Prisons, Great Britain | 18,000 |
| Reformatories and Industrial Schools, Great Britain | 37,000 |
| Broadmoor Criminal Lunatic Asylum | 5,000 |
| Miscellaneous Legal Charges | 3,000 |
| Scotland:— | |
| Criminal Proceedings | 11,000 |
| Courts of Law and Justice | 10,000 |
| Register House Departments | £5,000 |
| Prisons | 4,000 |
| Ireland:— | |
| Law Charges and Criminal Prosecutions | 13,000 |
| Court of Chancery | 7,500 |
| Common Law Courts | 5,000 |
| Court of Bankruptcy and Insolvency | 1,400 |
| Landed Estates Court | 2,000 |
| Probate Court | 2,000 |
| Admiralty Court Registry | 300 |
| Registry of Deeds | 2,500 |
| Registry of Judgments | 500 |
| Dublin Metropolitan Police | 19,000 |
| Constabulary | 164,000 |
| Government Prisons and Reformatories | 6,500 |
| County Prisons | 13,000 |
| Dundrum Criminal Lunatic Asylum | 900 |
| Four Courts Marshalsea Prison | 400 |
| Miscellaneous Legal Charges | 9,500 |
| Class IV. | |
| Great Britain:— | |
| Public Education | 216,000 |
| Science and Art Department | 44,000 |
| British Museum | 17,000 |
| National Gallery | 1,000 |
| National Portrait Gallery | 500 |
| Learned Societies | 2,000 |
| University of London | 1,600 |
| Endowed Schools Commission | 1,500 |
| Scotland:— | |
| Public Education | 26,000 |
| Board of Education | 1,000 |
| Universities, &c. in Scotland | 2,000 |
| National Gallery, Scotland | 350 |
| Ireland:— | |
| Public Education | 90,000 |
| Commissioners of Education (Endowed Schools) | 100 |
| National Gallery | 400 |
| Royal Irish Academy | 350 |
| Queen's University | 650 |
| Queen's Colleges | 700 |
| Class V. | |
| Diplomatic Services | 46,000 |
| Consular Services | 41,500 |
| Colonies, Grants in Aid | 8,000 |
| Orange River Territory and St. Helena | 600 |
| Slave Trade, Commissions for Suppression of | 50 |
| Tonnage Bounties, &c. | 2,200 |
| Emigration | 900 |
| Treasury Chest | 800 |
| Class VI. | |
| Superannuation and Retired Allowances | 106,000 |
| Merchant Seamen's Fund Pensions, &c. | 6,700 |
| Relief of Distressed British Seamen | 5,500 |
| Hospitals and Infirmaries, Ireland | 3,100 |
| Miscellaneous Charitable Allowances, &c. Great Britain | 1,000 |
| Miscellaneous Charitable Allowances, &c. Ireland | 1,000 |
| Class VII. | |
| Temporary Commissions | 3,000 |
| Deep Sea Exploring Expedition | 500 |
| Miscellaneous Expenses | 1,000 |
| Total | £1,842,000 |
§ MR. FAWCETTmoved that Progress be reported, on the ground that so many public Departments, and indirectly the Treasury, had been discredited by the financial scandal that had been brought to light, that he must object to a single shilling of public money being voted on account until the matter had been cleared up.
§ Motion made, and Question put, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."—(Mr. Fawcett.)
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes 24; Noes 62: Majority 38.
§ Original Question again proposed.
§ Motion made, and Question put, "That the Chairman do now leave the Chair."—(Mr. Monk.)
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes 24; Noes 59: Majority 35.
§ Original Question put, and agreed to.
§ Resolutions to be reported upon Monday next;
§ Committee to sit again upon Monday next.