HC Deb 06 June 1873 vol 216 cc610-7

Bill considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

Clause 6 (Apprentices before admission to make affidavit of having served) agreed to.

Clause 7 (Admission and enrolment of applicants as Law Agents).

MR. GORDON,

in proposing as an Amendment, in page 3, line 26, to leave out from "any," to "agents," in line 40, and. insert— Any person qualified as hereinbefore provided, may make application to the board of examiners under this Act to verify his qualifications, and take trial of his fitness to practise as a law agent, and on passing an examination as hereinafter provided, and obtaining from the board a certificate of qualification and fitness, shall be at liberty to present to the court a petition praying to be admitted a law agent under this Act, and the court may thereupon remit him accordingly, and an extract of such admission, written or printed, or partly written and partly printed on paper or parchment, stamped with the duty exigible by law, shall he good and sufficient warrant to the registrar to enrol him as a law agent accordingly, said, the course he proposed was similar in effect to the recommendation of the Committee of last year, based upon the view taken by the right hon. and learned Lord Advocate. The Society of Writers to the Signet and the Solicitors practising before the Supreme Court had always taken a great interest in the examination of persons desiring to practise as agents, and had adopted regulations for the study of such persons, he therefore thought it advisable that they should be represented on the Examining Board. Other bodies had also taken great interest in the matter, and had established Professorships in the Universities of Glasgow and Aberdeen for the studies necessary to law agents, therefore he thought those also should be represented on the Examining Board. The proposition of the right hon. and learned Gentleman last Session was the same in effect to that he (Mr. Gordon) now made, except that he thought Aberdeen ought to be included.

THE LORD ADVOCATE

said, the question between his hon. and learned Friend (Mr. Gordon) and himself was whether the Examiners of the law agents or attorneys of the future should be simply nominated by the Judges of the Supreme Court in Scotland, as in England, or whether they should be nominated in the manner proposed by his hon. and learned Friend—namely, two by one society, two by another society, or by a third being a society elected by various other societies throughout the country; two by a fourth; and two by a fifth. He quite admitted that last year he favourably considered the Amendment of his hon. and learned. Friend; but upon full consideration, he strongly resisted that proposal altogether, and suggested for the adoption of Parliament with reference to Scotland the same system which had for a very long period been used with perfect success in England. With respect to the clause before the House, it provided that applicants for admission should present their applications to the Board, which should take proceedings to ascertain their qualifications analogous to those pursued in England, and. which had given such entire satisfaction.

SIR EDWARD COLEBROOKE

said, he concurred with the Bill as it stood. No doubt the effect of the measure was ultimately to separate the examination entirely from those who had sought to institute the system of examinations; if that was so, he would oppose it, but he did not think it would have that effect. To keep up those different persons as qualified for Examiners, would be to establish an invidious distinction, when the object was to make an Examining Board that would represent the whole country. A general examination for the country could only be effected by one body formed of the different bodies uniting in one profession.

MR. GOLDNEY

said, there did not seem to be any provision for allowing an attorney who was qualified to practise in England to become a practitioner in Scotland so long as this proposed qualification should exist, making it compulsory that three years should be served with a law agent of Scotland. He should propose, therefore, to insert words, so that a properly qualified English practitioner should practise in Scotland.

THE LORD ADVOCATE

said, that he should at all times be glad to advocate the extension to English solicitors the privilege of practising in Scotland, whenever a similar privilege should be extended to Scotch practitioners in England. He was most anxious to give every facility to the agents, and should have no objection to shorten the period of service in Scotland for those gentlemen who had certificates entitling them to practise in England.

MR. GOLDNEY

said, that after that expression of opinion, he should move on the Report that the words "three years" should be omitted.

MR. LEITH

said, he was of opinion that it would be necessary to retain the period of three years, because, otherwise, there would be a number of English solicitors introduced who knew nothing of the Scotch law. He did not think three years an unreasonable time to serve, but it might be reduced on examination.

MR. M'LAREN

asked, whether the privileges of the different bodies in Scotland would be retained, or whether the Board of Examiners was to examine everything?

MR. CRAUFURD

thought that after the Act passed there would be a united Society of Law Agents in Scotland who would stand in the same position as the Law Society in England, and they would, in point of fact, form the examining body.

MR. M'LAREN

thought the hon. and learned Member for Ayr was in error, and wished to press the Lord Advocate for an explanation.

THE LORD ADVOCATE

said, that the point in question was dealt with in a subsequent clause. He referred to the 19th, which provided that the Judges, provided they thought the examination of the societies referred to satisfactory as a guarantee of the qualifications of applicants, should have power to accept it as equivalent to an examination by their own Examiners. The clauses were entirely consistent, and he felt bound to decline to say what he would do in regard to Clause 19 until they came to it.

MR. GORDON

said, he did not propose that candidates should be bound to apply to any of the existing societies—on the contrary, he wished to make it open to them to apply to the Courts, but he simply desired to provide an optional mode. The procedure he proposed was a Court for the special purpose of relieving the applicants from the necessity of applying to an existing society. Therefore, so far as expense was concerned, one system would not differ in the least from the other. However, as the Committee did not seem to support his proposition, he should not press it to a division.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 8 (The Court empowered to appoint Examiners).

MR. CRAUFURD

said, he had certain Amendments to propose, the object of which was to put the law on all-fours with the English Act, He thought if the Court of Session was to have power to appoint the Examiners, it should also have power to say what they should be; and his first proposal was to leave out the words in page 4, line 14 "being enrolled law agents and in practice as such." He would afterwards propose that the Judges should have power to prescribe the subjects of examination in law and general knowledge. He thought the Committee would see the necessity of altering the clause, so that Professors might be appointed, as well as those who were merely practitioners.

MR. MILLER

said, he did not find the law in England to be as stated by the hon. and learned Gentleman. In The Law Journal, it was stated that the examiners were the Masters of the Courts of Queen's Bench, Common Pleas, and Exchequer, with sixteen attorneys or solicitors. The hon. and learned Gentleman seemed to pointedly strike out the same class of persons in Scotland. [Mr. CRAUFURD: No, no!]

THE LORD ADVOCATE

said, he had no objection to the Amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

On the Motion of Mr. CRAUFURD, another Amendment made, in page 4, line 15, by leaving out after "Act" to "applicant" in line 20, inclusive.

MR. CRAUFURD,

in proposing as an Amendment, in line 21, after "time to time," to insert the words "to prescribe the subjects of examination in law and general knowledge and," said, it would simply give the Judges power to prescribe the examination, leaving it to the candidates to choose where they should acquire their information.

MR. M'LAREN

said, he thought it necessary to go further, and prescribe the curriculum. He would therefore propose, instead of the Amendment of his hon. and learned Friend, the addition of the words, "a curriculum of education for apprentices and for candidates for admission and examination thereon." That had been suggested by the Society of Solicitors. They themselves had obtained an Act some years ago to improve the education of their young men, and they were anxious to guard against any interference that would have the effect of lowering the standard of education. They thought it desirable that the Court should have the power to say what cur- riculum students should go through in order to fit them for examination.

THE LORD ADVOCATE

suggested that the Committee should first dispose of the Amendment as it stood.

MR. M'LAREN

said, if the right hon. and learned Lord Advocate preferred the words as they were on the Paper, he would not press his Amendment.

MR. ORR-EWING

thought the proposal of the hon. Member for Edinburgh (Mr. M'Laren) was better than that of the original Amendment.

THE LORD ADVOCATE

said, he was quite prepared to accept the Amendment of the hon. and learned Member for Ayr, but he did not think it was advisable to give the Court power to fix the curriculum.

Amendment (Mr. M'Laren) negatived.

Amendment (Mr. Craufurd) agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 9, agreed to.

Clause 10 agreed to.

Clause 11 (Law Agent before admission to take oath).

MR. BOUVERIE

hoped that the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Lord Advocate would consent to omit this clause, under which a law agent was to take an oath that he would faithfully perform his duty. There would be no security in any such oath, because if a man was a rogue, he would be a rogue in spite of an oath.

THE LORD ADVOCATE

said, he did not object to the clause being struck out.

Clause struck out accordingly.

Clause 12 agreed to.

Clause 13 (Roll to be kept of Agents practising in the Court of Session).

MR. CRAUFURD

moved as an Amendment, in 5, line 26, to leave out "and who has a place of business in Edinburgh or Leith."

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 14, verbally amended, and agreed to.

Clause 15 (Lord President may make rules as to the keeping and subscribing rolls).

MR. CRAUFURD

moved as an Amendment, in page 6, line 17, after "rolls," to insert— The name of any person shall be struck off the said rolls, (1) in obedience to the order of the Court, upon application duly made, and after hearing parties; (2) upon his own written application.

THE LORD ADVOCATE

said, he would consent to the adoption of the Amendment.

Amendment agreed to; words inserted.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 16 to 18, inclusive, agreed to.

Clause 19 (corporate rights of certain societies not to be prejudiced so far as consistent with Act).

MR. CRAUFURD

moved as an Amendment in page 6, line 41, after "enrolled Law Agents," to leave out the remainder of the clause. He said he did so, because those words contained the monopoly of certain existing bodies.

Amendment proposed, in page 6, line 41, to leave out the words "and it shall be lawful for the Court to accept a certificate."—(Mr. Craufurd.)

MR. M'LAREN

objected to the Amendment, because it would extinguish the very proper privileges of certain bodies which had existed for some considerable length of time.

THE LORD ADVOCATE

said, he was prepared to stand by the proposal in the Bill, if the Committee thought proper; though if a majority were of a contrary opinion, he did not think the matter was one of such great importance that he should resist the proposal of the Amendment.

MR. BOUVERIE

differed from the Lord Advocate, who had made one general gateway for admission to the profession, and then opened nine other side doors by giving these nine bodies the power of admitting. What was the use of this general gateway, if these side doors were to remain open?

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."

The Committee divided:—Ayes 26; Noes 18: Majority 8.

Clause agreed to.

MR. CRAUFURD

expressed his regret that the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Lord Advocate had not agreed to his Amendment in the clause, especially after he had said that he would defer to the opinion of the Com- mittee. He should certainly move his Amendment again on the Report.

Clauses 20 to 24, inclusive, agreed to.

On the Motion of the LORD ADVOCATE, new clauses—(The Court may, within one year after the passing of the Act, admit notaries public to be enrolled, if they see fit); and (Repealing clause) were added to the Bill.

House resumed.

Bill reported; as amended, to be considered upon Thursday next, and to be printed. [Bill 184.]

House adjourned at Two o'clock, till Monday next.