COMMITTEE.

HC Deb 25 July 1873 vol 217 cc1023-8

Bill considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

Clause 1 and 2 agreed to.

Clause 3 (Particulars to be marked on British ships).

MR. NORWOOD

said, that, as several of the clauses contained in the Bill were of a highly penal character, it was only fair to give shipowners time to prepare for the necessary changes. He would, therefore, move as an Amendment, in page 1, line 14, to strike out "January," in order to insert "July." Time should be given for the circulation of the Act before it came into operation. As the Bill now stood, many of its provisions would come into operation immediately on receiving the Royal Assent, and might thereby prove hurtful to many ships which were now away in foreign waters.

MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUE

said, that he would be sorry to postpone the operation of the clause beyond the 1st of January, yet as regarded certain ships not at the time within British jurisdiction, he would specify a period of one month after their arrival in any port of the United Kingdom. There were some other clauses which, perhaps, ought not to come into immediate operation, and he would consider how words could be best introduced to delay their operation upon the Report.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 4 (Particulars to be entered in record of draught of water).

MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUE

moved an Amendment which would prevent any reference being made to the depth of a ship's hold for purposes of registration. It might be very difficult at the last moment to obtain that depth, and he found that, under ordinary circumstances, the Board of Trade had ample means for obtaining such information, without inserting a provision to that effect in an Act of Parliament.

Amendment agreed to.

MR. NORWOOD

said, that the measurement of ships contemplated by the clause, to ascertain their buoyancy, was to be taken amidships only. That would not give a full or fair idea of their buoyancy, and he therefore moved in page 2, line 40, to add the words "amidships and at the stem and at the stern," in order that the measurement should be made in three places instead of one. The object of the Amendment was to guard against erroneous impressions as to a ship's seaworthiness that might arise from the fact of the single measurement being put on record. Some vessels had long poops and topgallant forecastles, and others had more sheer than was usual, and so might be safely loaded deeper amidships than other vessels.

Amendment proposed, in page 2, line 40, after the word "side," to insert the words "amidships and at the stem and at the stern."—(Mr. Norwood.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUE

observed that the point was a very technical one. He had taken the best professional advice with respect to it, and had been advised that the measurement should be amidships only. He could not, therefore, accept the Amendment.

MR. CANDLISH,

in supporting the Amendment, said, that the buoyancy of a ship could not be ascertained if she were measured amidships only.

MR. BATES

hoped the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade would not assent to the proposed alteration of the clause.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes 32; Noes 117: Majority 85.

Clause agreed to.

Clauses 5 to 13, inclusive, agreed to.

Clause 14 (Appeal from decision of Board of Trade).

MR. HANBURY-TRACY,

in moving as an Amendment, in page 6, line .10, to leave out "by the Board of Trade," said, the object of that and following Amendments he wished to make in the clause was to obtain an impartial survey.

MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUE

said he accepted the spirit of the Amendment, but would propose, that instead of leaving out the words suggested, the words "or shipowner" should be added after them.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

On the Motion of Mr. CHICHESTER FORTESCUE, Amendment made, in page 6, line 40, after "Trade," by inserting the words "or shipowner."

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 15 (Power for Board of Trade to vary requirements as to boats.)

MR. MUNTZ

proposed an Amendment providing for the enforcement of proper regulations for the lowering of boats on occasions of emergency. They all knew how often lives were lost from the want of some such regulations.

MR. SAMUDA

said, the proposed Amendment would saddle the Board of Trade with a large responsibility, and one which the Board would not be able satisfactorily to carry out.

MR. COWPER-TEMPLE

hoped the Board of Trade would initiate inquiries, as to what were the best means of saving life in case of shipwreck. He thought that the Amendment ought to be adopted.

MR. CANDLISH

said, that if the regulations of that kind were adopted by the Board of Trade the responsibility would be taken off the shoulders of the shipowners, which he thought undesirable.

MR. T. BRASSEY

said, it would be simply impossible to keep up the constant supervision which would be necessary if the Amendment were passed.

MR. R. N. FOWLER

inquired whether, in the opinion of the right hon. Gentleman, the present state of the law was satisfactory as to life boats?

MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUE

said, he was not prepared to recommend the Committee to impose such serious responsibilities upon the Board of Trade as the Amendment proposed. The clause itself was only intended to be a temporary provision, and it would no doubt be strengthened hereafter, according to the success of the experiments which were being made for saving life. Before the Board of Trade could adopt any of the best appliances the trials must be made at sea, subject to all the conditions of stormy weather. The law as it stood at present did provide that vessels should be duly supplied with boats and all requisites for their use, and, therefore, as the Board of Trade could not at present hope to fulfil the conditions of the Amendment with satisfaction to the public, he must decline to accept it.

MR. MUNTZ

said, what he wished to do by his Amendment was to give the Board of Trade power to provide means especially for lowering boats with safety down the sides of vessels when the lives of the passengers and crew were endangered by shipwreck. The want of such means, he believed, was the principal cause of disaster.

MR. BATES

believed that the loss of life was chiefly caused by the great fear and tumult which prevailed when a ship was foundering. The clause had better remain as it stood, so that the responsibility of providing the best means of saving life might rest on the shipowner, and not upon the Board of Trade.

MR. ALDERMAN LUSK

concurred, and expressed a hope that the responsibility would never be taken away from those on whom the prevention of accidents more immediately depended.

Amendment negatived.

On Question, That the Clause stand part of the Bill?

MR. NORWOOD

approved of the clause as far as it went, but regretted that it did not go further. A blot in the original Act of 1854 was the fact of the supply of boats being made proportionate to the scale of the tonnage of the ship, and not to the number of passengers carried. That was a great mistake, and he hoped the Board of Trade would find a remedy for it. Every passenger ship ought to be compelled to carry boats adequate to the number of persons on board. When he had crossed the Channel to the Continent, he had observed that there was nothing like the number of boats required for the passengers on board; while on the other hand, large vessels going long voyages with few passengers had much more boat accommodation than could be of any use.

MR. SAMUDA

was of opinion that the clause already went in that direction as far as was practicable. There was the difficulty of stowing the boats, and it was not for want of them that loss of life often occurred. Indeed, one of the greatest shipowners in this country had assured him that the closest observation over a great number of years had led him to the conclusion that these boats had actually caused more loss of life than they had ever saved.

MR. COWPER-TEMPLE

suggested that as many of the boats now carried on ships were useless for the purpose of saving life, their place could be supplied by boats and modern appliances which would be of real service.

SIR JOHN HAY

entirely approved of the object of the clause, but was desirous of making it more explicit with reference to collisions such as that which resulted in the loss of the Northfleet. He suggested whether words might not be inserted in the clause, providing that in cases of collision the two vessels should be bound to stay by each other until each had ascertained from the other whether any assistance was required.

MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUE

promised to consider the suggestion, and to see whether he could not on the Report bring up words to meet the object in view.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 16 (Duties of masters in case of collision).

MR. MAGNIAC

moved the addition of the following words, as a Proviso to the clause:— Provided, That the benefit of this clause shall not extend to any foreign vessel, unless mutual advantages shall have been granted by convention or otherwise by the Government of the country to which such foreign vessel may belong.

MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUE

opposed the Amendment. He held that the master of a vessel who was guilty of a crime like that committed by the captain of the Murillo at the beginning of this year ought to be considered to be guilty of a misdemeanour.

Amendment negatived.

MR. CANDLISH

complained that the punishment for offences to which the clause related was thrown not upon those who were guilty of such offences—the captains—but upon the unfortunate underwriters.

MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUE

said, that in that respect the clause was a mere re-enactment of the existing law, excepting that for a certain offence the captain was held guilty of a misdemeanour.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 17 (Rule for steamers in narrow channels).

MR. HANBURY-TRACY

moved the omission of the clause.

Question put, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

The Committee divided:—Ayes 75; Noes 45: Majority 30.

House resumed.

Committee report Progress; to sit again this day.

And it being now Seven of the clock, House suspended its sitting.

House resumed its sitting at Nine of the clock.