HC Deb 21 February 1873 vol 214 cc815-29
MR. MUNDELLA

rose to move that— A Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the causes of the present dearness and scarcity of Coal, and report thereon to the House. The hon. Member stated it would not be necessary for him to trouble the House at any great length, as he understood the Government would assent to the appointment of the Committee. In proposing this Motion he begged to say that he had no desire to establish any theory of his own, or to induce the House to interfere with the general course of business in this country. He had no foregone conclusion on the matter, and all he was anxious for was that coal consumers should have on record evidence of an undoubted character as to the causes of the present dearness and scarcity of coal, in order that we might in future guard against them, if it were possible. The importance of the question it was hardly possible to exaggerate, seeing that coal was the source of the motive power of our national industries, and therefore as a necessary stood next to food. No doubt the excessive dearness of fuel was now inflicting great hardships and privations upon tens of thousands of poor people, but it was in reference to the employment of our people that this question was of greater importance than it was as a question affecting their comfort. Some of us experienced a rude shock when Sir William Armstrong, basing his calculations on the present ratio in the increased consumption of our coal, concluded that our coal pits would be exhausted in 110 years; and, although many of us might desire to live as long as we could, few would desire to live within 20 or 30 years of that exhaustion, for nothing more disastrous could be contemplated. Even if we might be hopeful that Sir William Armstrong had taken too desponding a view of our coal supply, and of what could be done by economizing and utilizing our resources, he was quite right in estimating two years ago the increased cost to the country of the consumption of coal at £44,000,000 per annum. That was considerably under the mark; and he (Mr. Mundella) had heard the increased cost estimated at as high a figure as the total amount of the taxation of the country. A vast proportion of this increase was undoubtedly paid by the foreign consumer, in the higher prices of iron, rails, steel, and manufactured goods of every description; but a large proportion was also paid by the people of this country, and that was already producing disastrous results to the industry of the country, for mills were being stopped and labour disorganized, and he had been told of one place in Lancashire where the wages paid were £1,000 a day less than they would be but for the dearness of coal. Therefore if its price were maintained, the most disastrous results must ensue. A large proportion of the apparent loss to the country went into the pockets of the coal-owners, but they were a very small class of the community, and the mass of the people was suffering from the cause of their prosperity. There was growing up in the country a strong feeling that measures ought to be taken by the Government to meet the difficulty. He did not expect the Government could or would interfere with the ordinary laws of supply and demand; but he believed a sound public opinion could do much to put an end to the existing state of things. The very Notice of this Motion had called the attention of the coal-owners, the miners, and consumers throughout the country to this question, and it had begun to operate in the direction of a reduction of the price and an increase of the supply. Since he had put the Notice on the Paper, indignation meetings had been held in many parts of the country, and in many districts, particularly near Sheffield, a feeling was manifested in favour of the entire prohibition of the export of coal. Before anything was done in that direction, it was well that public opinion should be well informed as to the real facts of the case; and, amongst other reasons, it was in order that an intelligent public opinion might be created, that he moved for a Committee. He had received numerous letters, some of them from men of very high intelligence, suggesting that the Government should assume the control of the undeveloped mines of the country. It was very important, however, that before dealing with the rights of property, or what were believed to be the rights of property, they should have the requisite information on the subject. Various causes had been assigned for the present dearness and scarcity of coal. Sir William Armstrong said the demand had overtaken the supply, and that a very small increase in labour on the part of the workmen would enable the coal-owners to meet the demand. He did not wish to dispute that, nor did he wish to establish any theory of his own, but he quite concurred in the statement that the coal-owners had long been aware that the limitation of quantity was the only effectual mode of raising prices, and that what they had never been able to do by their own action—namely, to maintain a restricted production—had been done for them by their workmen. His hon. Friend the Secretary for the Admiralty, in a speech at Reading a few months ago which created some sensation, attributed the present dearness of coal to a combination of the coal-owners. The coal-owners very indignantly repudiated that statement, and he (Mr. Mundella) could not say from any evidence that had come before him that there had been anything like a coal rig, or combination of coal-owners, and even if he had such evidence he would not state it in view of an inquiry by a Committee. He was quite sure that the coal-owners were willing parties to the present diminished production, and that they had no objection to pocket the enormous prices that were being paid. On the other hand, the coal-owner assigned the present state of affairs to the idleness and profligacy of the workmen; and if that were so, it was the first time in modern experience that the idleness and profligacy of workmen had been turned to so good an account by their employers. But if there were any truth in this assertion of the coal-owners, it was exceedingly deplorable. As an advocate of the rights of association, he felt it his duty to denounce in the strongest manner any attempt on the part of workmen either to shirk their work or to combine together to restrict production, and diminish the stocks which could be raised by their employers; and it was therefore in the highest degree desirable that a Committee of this House should ascertain whether there was really any foundation for such a statement, and that the working class should bring their opinion to bear upon that small portion of their own class to induce them to conduct themselves with propriety and industry. He was glad to see that this week working men themselves were bringing their influence to bear upon their fellow-workmen, and that the Clay Cross colliers—a numerous body in Derbyshire—had met and passed a resolution pledging themselves, seeing the serious state of things that resulted from the scarcity of coal, to attend work regularly; and the speakers denounced those who, by neglecting their employment, were doing so much harm to the country at large. The evils of combination were not beyond the reach of intelligent public opinion, and the true way of making the working men temperate, thrifty, and industrious, was to bring to bear on them the influence of their own class. But the men repudiate the assertion that they were thriftless and idle; and there was certainly something to be said on the other side of the question. He had before him figures for the correctness of which he could vouch. They were a statement of the output of coal from a mine in which he was interested, and they had been worked out by the manager himself. From that statement it appeared that coals which a year and a-half ago in the South-West Riding of Yorkshire were sold at the pit's mouth at from 6s. to 8s. per ton, and in London from 18s. to 20s. per ton—the wages paid for under and above ground labour being 2s. 6½d. per ton—last week were sold at the pit's mouth at from 18s. to 20s. per ton, the difference being 12s. to 14s.; and in London, after paying 8s. per ton as the cost of transit, they were sold at from 45s. to 50s. per ton, and to poor people, who purchase in small quantities, at 60s. And what had been the miners' wages? He could vouch for the truth of this statement also. The wages in the very same mine paid last week had been 3s. 2½d. per ton, as against 2s. 6½d. a year and a-half ago. There appeared to be an impression in the country that the strike in South Wales had a great deal to do with the increased price of coal; but there never was a greater mistake. He was assured on all hands that the strike had rather increased the supply of house and steam coal than decreased it. The men who had been engaged in raising coal for the production of iron had gone into the house and steam coal mines, and there had thus been a larger supply of those descriptions of coal in South Wales than before the strike began. It might be asked how such an inquiry as he proposed could affect the price or supply of this important commodity? He did not expect, as the result of the Committee's labours, any legislation interfering with the trade; but he did expect that some light would be thrown on the whole question which would show the public how the present state of affairs had come about. Last week the coal proprietors of South Yorkshire had a meeting and denounced the middle-men, who they said were pocketing more than 20s. per ton on the coal sold in London. If there was such a monopoly in this great metropolis, it was quite time it should be exposed and means taken to remedy it. The notice of the Committee had already operated in reducing the price, and he believed it would also operate in increasing the supply. While the various parties interested in the matter were reproaching each other, they might be satisfied that the result of their mutual quarrels would be to benefit the public, and the probability was that they would have the price of this most important part of their national industry, employment, and comfort materially reduced. He begged to move the appointment of the Committee.

MR. LIDDELL

said, he rose to second the Motion of his hon. Friend, and to express his satisfaction that the Government had thought fit to accede to this inquiry. He supported the Motion, not because he believed it would be productive of any good. He did not believe it would teach practical men—persons conversant with trade generally—anything that they did not know at present; but he thought it would have a tendency to remove a considerable amount of misapprehension which prevailed in the public mind on this subject. He could not help thinking that he had detected traces of error and misapprehension in the state- ment of his hon. Friend opposite; and if errors and misapprehensions existed, a Committee was an excellent place to dispel them. It was upon that ground desirable that an inquiry should be instituted. He would illustrate what he meant by a reference to another matter, which had occupied public attention rather extensively. He saw or heard that somebody recently described a Royal Commission as a Commission whose object was— "to lower the price of horses from national considerations." Now he did not believe it was in the power of a Royal Commission or of a Committee of this House to lower the price either of horses or coal, even from national considerations. It was not in the power of Parliament to alter the inexorable laws of supply and demand, and therefore he was afraid that they would not do much to lower the price of coal by the researches of this Committee, but though it was not in the power of Parliament to reduce the price of favourite articles of consumption, he must remind the House it was in their power to enhance the price of such articles. It had often been done before, and he had no great confidence that it might not happen again. Every time that this House interfered with labour it had that tendency. He had often seen attempts made in this House to interfere very materially with labour, and he had little doubt that labour had a great deal to do with the present price of coal. The whole history of the present state of affairs in the coal trade might be briefly described. Coal was the first necessity in manufacturing industry, and they had seen the industry of this country expanded in what he might almost call a supernatural degree. The demand for that first necessity had consequently overtaken the supply, and when that took place it was impossible to tell to what a pitch prices might reach, because every accidental circumstance might tend to increase them. Then their friends the workmen stepped in, and not unnaturally said—" You coal-owners are making enormous profits; we must share them." Thus wages rose. The workman found that he could earn as much or more than he did before by working less time, and the effect of that was that the output of coal was diminished. Up went at once the price of coal again, and there was a great national—he would not say grievance—but calamity, which, like an enormous snowball, went on rolling—vires aequirit eundo—and it would be difficult for the most sensible men in the House or out of it to predict what might happen or what the issue might be. Unless wiser counsels prevailed, his belief was that a long continuance of the present price of coals would end in crippling and paralyzing the productive power of the country, and in banishing capital to distant but freer fields. This he believed, and he stated his belief openly on the floor of the House of Commons, in order that those who understood the question might contradict him if they could. His hon. Friend and many other people said—"Oh, the coal-owners are making the most of all this, and putting all this money into their pockets." Well, he knew that they were making a good deal of money, and so also were the coal merchants; but were traders to be debarred from "making hay while the sun shines?" He wished to point out that what the coal trade flourished by was a steady demand and fair prices. It was the lasting price that was beneficial; an exaggerated and inflated state of prices was looked upon with apprehension by prudent men, because it could not last; it must come to an end, and the end would probably be a crash. The coal-owners would like to see a steady demand at reduced prices, because such a state of trade would be continuous. He thought that the proposed Committee might do good. He thought also that it might do good in a way which had not been alluded to; it might tend to teach the working men what he wished they would study a little more—and that was the condition of the trade in which they were employed. The English working men employed very clever agents to obtain all kinds of information, and to give them much advice—often mistaken advice—but if they would employ persons to go abroad and find out what kindred interests and industries were doing, what probability there was of those rivals profiting by the decided check these prices were already inflicting, or would inflict on British industry, such information would go to the hearts of English workmen, who would be quite sensible enough to understand it. If information of this nature resulted from the researches of the Committee, con- ducted with a real view to the public interest, it would be extensively studied by our workmen, and nothing would so much tend to terminate the deplorable conflicts between capital and labour as a thorough comprehension of the conditions of manufacturing industries in which they were both engaged. The hon. Member concluded by seconding the Resolution.

Amendment proposed, To leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the causes of the present dearness and scarcity of Coal, and report thereon to the House," —(Mr. Mundella,)

—instead thereof.

MR. HUSSEY VIVIAN

said, he thought there could be scarcely two opinions as to the advisability of the question being investigated by a Committee of' the House of Commons. The price of coals in this country went to the very root of its manufactures. There could be no question that the greatness and the prosperity of this country had arisen, in the main, from the cheapness of its coal, and disastrous consequences would ensue to our manufacturing industries from a continuance for any length of time of present prices or anything approaching them. Indeed, many of our great industries would no longer be able to exist. The great smelting industries, with which he was intimately acquainted, were already largely suffering, depending, as they did, on the cheapness of fuel. We imported ores of every kind from all parts of the world, and we should no longer be the great smelting centre of the globe if the present price of coal continued. He would touch very slightly on the present state of things. He believed the well-known and unalterable laws of supply and demand were at the root of the difficulty. He had no doubt that the commencement of the present high prices arose from the exceeding prosperity of the manufactures of this country, especially the great iron manufacture. Everybody desired at one moment to increase the quantity of iron and other manufactured goods, which could only be done by increasing the consumption of coal. In all trades it was found that a very small excess of demand produced an extraordinary increase of production; and such was the case with the iron trade—a very slight deficiency, marked almost by a decimal fraction, would produce the evil under which England now suffered. He was not at all sure that he should find that the output of coals had been largely diminished; but he had no doubt that the short hours during which the men had worked, and the extent to which they had restricted themselves in the quantity of coals which they had worked during those hours, had had a material effect on the maintenance of the high prices. A rising price, as his hon. Friend had remarked, acted on wages, and rising wages acted on prices; and it was impossible to say where such a state of things might end. When he moved for the appointment of a Royal Commission in 1866 to inquire into this question, he expressed a very decided opinion in that House, and he gave his reasons for believing that a bountiful Providence had provided this country with such an enormous store of this precious mineral as should rid us of all apprehension of a failure of supply within any reasonable time. The results of the Inquiry by the Royal Commission corresponded almost exactly with the figures which he had submitted to the House; and he thought therefore that he needed not to speculate on the increased consumption of coals on either the arithmetical or the geometrical ratio. Those who investigated the case in that way were bound to show what other conditions must subsist if the increased consumption of coals went on according to either of those ratios. As he showed in 1866, such assumption involved a production of iron which was perfectly fabulous, and so dense a population as almost to make it impossible to supply them with water enough to drink. It was absurd, therefore, to say our coal would last only 100 years, for our population could not increase with the rapidity which this involved. He predicted in 1866 that the difficulty of the future would be labour, and so it had proved. From all the experience which he gained from that Royal Commission, he said again that the stores of those valuable minerals in this country were unbounded. At the present rate of consumption, we had coals enough to last us upwards of 1,200 years. He arrived at this point after a most careful calculation. The coals were almost measured and weighed. The district which he undertook, and he believed every other, were investigated as carefully, and each seam as carefully estimated, as anyone might investigate a mineral property which he was about to purchase. He thought, therefore, the country might rely in the most absolute manner on the results given by the Royal Commission; and his opinion was that other coalfields would afterwards be discovered in the South of England and elsewhere, which would largely increase the quantity of coal which they were able conscientiously to report; so that, as far as that was concerned, they might dismiss all their fears. The question of labour in a colliery was not precisely the same as it was in almost any other industry. He had, indeed, been able to turn good intelligent labourers into thoroughly good colliers; but though there was no insuperable difficulty in doing that, still it took time—a great element in matters of that kind. He could only hope that the Committee would be carefully selected, so that its Members might not have any special bias, but that they should assume as nearly as possible a thoroughly judicial character.

MR. EYKYN

said, he supported the appointment of a Committee to investigate into all the circumstances which had led to the enormous rise in the price of coals. He trusted that such an investigation would show who were the real sinners, and whether it was to the miners, the coal-owners, or the intermediate men, the coal dealers, that they wore indebted for such small mercies as were vouchsafed to them in that matter. He was himself connected with one of the London gas companies which was at that moment applying to the House for increased powers to enable it to obtain an increased price for its gas in consequence of the increased sum it had to pay for coal; therefore he felt deeply interested in the question before the House. It was a source of satisfaction to learn from the last speaker that the amount of coal in this country was so great, although his views on that point did not quite accord with those of Sir William Armstrong and Professor Jevons.

MR. WHEELHOUSE

suggested that the proposed Committee should direct its inquiries, among other points, to the question of how far it was desirable, in regard especially to those countries with which we had no treaties prohibiting it, to place an export duty on coal.

MR. BRUCE

said, the Government had no difficulty in acceding to the desire of the hon. Member for Sheffield (Mr. Mundella) that a Select Committee should be appointed to inquire into the subject of the increased cost of coal. He had too great confidence in the knowledge and good sense of the people to suppose they would expect the result of the Committee to be that the Government or Parliament would interfere with the production of coal; but he thought that the importance of the subject was such, and the advantage of enlightenment so considerable, that it would be wrong to lose the opportunity of obtaining the fullest information on the question. A good deal had been said about the causes of the sudden and enormous rise in the price of coal which had naturally excited such interest and anxiety. Most speakers had alluded to the great influence of the supply of fuel on the commercial greatness of this country, and also to the intense suffering which its dearness inflicted on a large part of the community. There was no doubt the immediate cause of the rise in the price of coal was a concurrence of two circumstances. The one was the sudden expansion of the demand for iron at the same time that there was a general increase in almost every description of trade in which fuel was essential to production, and the other was the coincidence of a great demand for increased wages among the colliery population. There had also been at the very moment when the demand for coal was greatest a considerable reduction in the amount of labour applied to the production of coal. He was unable to give the figures showing the amount of coal produced in the last year as compared with preceding years, for the Returns for the Government on that subject were not yet complete. The general result, however, of the information he had been able to gather from Inspectors on that point was, he thought, very much that which had been arrived at by his hon. Friend the Member for Glamorganshire (Mr. Hussey Vivian). He believed there had been little decline positively in the production of coal last year, but that relatively to former years, relatively especially to the great increase in the demand for coal, there had not been that increased production of it which might have been naturally expected. There had been an immense increase in the means taken by capitalists to meet the demand for coal, but there had not been corresponding exertions made by the working population to supply coal. He spoke from unimpeachable sources of information when he said that in his own district the increase of the rate of wages had led not simply to a decrease in the actual amount of coal yielded, but to a positive decrease of the earnings of the workmen themselves. In some of the largest collieries in his neigh bourhood last year the total amount of wages paid to the workmen, although their rate of wages per ton had considerably increased, was less than it had been in the preceding year. That, he feared, had arisen partly from the determination of the men who had allied themselves to the trades' unions to diminish the supply of coal in order to raise its price and their own wages, and partly also, to a very great extent, to the extraordinary agitation which the state of the coal market produced among the working class. The men naturally expected to participate in the large profits made through the increased price of coal, and they hardly knew how much to ask. The consequence had been that workmen, hitherto industrious and regular in their attention to their work, had been content to work three days a-week, and, to his certain knowledge, in some cases only two days a-week, and in that way they earned far less wages. He believed, however, they were now recovering to a great degree from that error; and that, owing to the strong expression of public opinion and to the advice of some of their leaders, who were very sensible to public feeling, an improvement in that respect was occurring. At that moment probably the production of coal in South Wales was as great as it had been in any previous year. The strike there had nothing whatever to do with its production. The strike applied to the iron trade, and the coal used in the production of iron. But from a great number of the colliers engaged in the iron trade having transferred their labour to collieries worked for the general market, and also from a better feeling—and in fact a return to their old habits of industry on the part of the working population—there was at the present moment undoubtedly a very marked increase in the production of coal. He was not surprised at the effect of the extraordinary condition of the trade on the minds of the colliers. Nor did he blame the coal-owners for making the best of the large demand. They could not expect a peculiar and exceptional generosity from any class. What they could expect was an enlightened self-interest, and he believed that enlightened men among them were discovering that the late enormous price of coal would not operate altogether to their own advantage—that it was paralyzing other kinds of industry, and must ultimately exercise an evil effect upon their own trade. It was seen that at this moment, when in all parts of the world there was the greatest demand for the products of this country, our manufacturers were in many instances actually obliged to reduce their ordinary establishments, from the simple fact that they were unable to obtain cheaper fuel. But out of evil often came good, and one good that would probably come out of the present high prices of coal would be that it would lead the people of this country, whether those who were engaged in manufacture or who consumed coal merely for domestic purposes, to be more economical in its use. He had conversed with intelligent gentlemen connected with the iron trade, who had travelled in France and Germany for the purpose of comparing the modes of production and manufacture in those countries and in England, and they had assured him that no one circumstance struck them so forcibly as the difference between those two countries and England with respect to the use of coals. There was a careful and economical use of coals in France and Germany, and a wasteful consumption in this country. But we had now learnt a lesson which he hoped we should profit by. Economy in the use of coal was in progress in our steam Navy, where the economic employment of coal was of double importance, not only on account of the actual price paid for fuel, but on account of the large room for the carriage of goods which a smaller quantity of coal would admit of. We knew that the same motive power was now obtained by about half the quantity of coal which used to be obtained some years ago, and he supposed there was hardly a boiler in use throughout the country for which so much coal was burned as 10 years ago. In other directions efforts were being made to economise, and in proportion to the rise in price would those efforts increase. They would no doubt have the effect of preventing the gradual increase in the consumption of coal to which reference had been made. Sir William Armstrong suggested that if the increase in the consumption of coal went on at the same rate as it had done during the last 20 or 30 years we should come to the end of our coal supplies in about 110 years. But his hon. Friend the Member for Glamorgan-shire (Mr. Hussey Vivian) had stated that it was a physical impossibility that the same ratio of consumption should be kept up, and over and above the reason his hon. Friend gave for his opinion, there was the increased price of the article. An hon. Member had alluded to the legislation of this House as having had some effect in raising the price of coal. No doubt one effect of the Mines Act of last Session was to limit the labour of young persons under 16 years of age to 54 hours per week. But he would like to know whether the coal-owners of this country would not be glad to bargain for 54 hours a-week from their workmen. He had asked one of the most experienced of the Inspectors—a man of fair and candid mind—for his estimate of the cost which the Mines Act added to the production of coal, and his estimate was that it had added 2d. a-ton. On the other hand, we might reasonably expect from that legislation a better educated body of men, and that, in his opinion, would more than counterbalance the loss to the community in the increased price of 2d. a-ton, or even a very much larger sum. All these matters, however, would be considered by the Select Committee, and the Government would as far as possible aid in fulfilling the desire of the hon. Member for Glamorganshire that the Committee should be composed of men likely to give the fullest and, at the same time, the fairest consideration to the subject.

Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question," put, and negatived.

Words added.

Main Question, as amended, put, and agreed to.

COAL,—Select Committee appointed, "to inquire into the causes of the present dearness and scarcity of Coal, and report thereon to the House."

And, on March 4, Committee nominated as follows:—Mr. AYRTON, Mr. CORRANCE, Mr. HUSSEY VIVIAN, Mr. WHARTON, Mr. CARTER, Mr. DENISON, Mr. LIDDELL, Mr. PEASE, Mr. JOHN STEWART HARDY, Mr. Ploy Mr. GRIEVE, Mr. EDMUND POTTER, Mr. WATNEY, Mr. STAN-HOPE, Mr. WILLIAM HENRY SMITH, Mr. ANDERSON, and Mr. MUNDELLA:—Power to send for persons, papers, and records; Five to be the quorum.

SUPPLY,—Committee upon Monday next.

Notice taken, that 40 Members were not present; House counted, and 40 Members not being present,

House adjourned at a quarter before Nine o'clock, till Monday next.