HC Deb 13 June 1872 vol 211 cc1718-21

Clause 62 (Evidence of Orders, &c. of Education Department) agreed to.

Clause 63 (Inspection) agreed to.

Clause 64 (Parliamentary grant).


, in moving in page 24, line 22, after "situated," to insert— But to the extent only of two-thirds of the grant which would be made to a public school according to the rates and under the conditions aforesaid, said, that Scotland was not at present under the Revised Code, but under the system by which money was given in augmentation of the salaries of schoolmasters and in aid of pupil-teachers. Under that System, Scotland now obtained £100,000 a-year; but as soon as the Bill should become law, Scotland would be brought under the Revised Code, and would get a large increase from the purse of the nation. When the Prime Minister announced, with regard to the English Bill, that an increase would be made in the Parliamentary grant, the ground of that increase was stated to be in order that denominational schools should not suffer by competition with the school board schools, but what he (Mr. Trevelyan) wished to see with regard to Scotland was, that while the denominational schools should not be placed in a worse position than that in which they were now, this Bill should not be made the means of bettering their position. Unless some such Amendment as this were agreed to, the Established Church in Scotland would be placed in a very cruel position; for at that moment the parish schools of Scotland were virtually the schools of the Established Church, and they would be placed under school boards, who would be able to turn them into anything they choose—even secular schools—and the Established Church would be placed in a position inferior to that of the Free Church. Moreover, there was no such necessity for giving this grant in Scotland as there was in England, for in England the grant materially aided the passing of the Bill; but the present Bill had been all but passed already, without any such step being taken. He would also point out the fact that the denominationalists in Scotland did not ask for the gift which the right hon. Gentleman seemed inclined to force upon them; but they might depend upon it, that if it were given the taste for such things would assuredly grow. He did not, however, ask for the discontinuance of the grant, but simply that it should not be increased, and he believed that his Amendment would greatly conduce to the good working of the measure.

Amendment proposed, In page 24, line 22, after the word "situated," to insert the words "but to the extent only of two thirds of the grant which would be made to a public school, according to the rates and under the conditions aforesaid."—(Mr. Trevelyan.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."


said, the hon. Member had truly remarked that this was the backbone of the Bill; but he was asking the Committee now to reverse the decision they had come to on the Bill of 1870. He therefore hoped that the Committee would not consent to do for Scotland what they had declined to do for England. Mr. Lyulph Stanley, the late defeated candidate for Oldham, a distinguished member of the Birmingham League, having gone down there against the principle of denominational education, returned from that place quite favourable to that principle. After his three or four days' experience of Lancashire he had come to the opinion that it was not desirable to discourage denominational schools. The hon. Member for the Border Burghs, by his Amendment, did not propose to abolish those denominational schools, but he was taking the dirty course of trying to starve them by degrees.


thought that there ought to be one national system for every part of the United Kingdom, whereas the Government, by their measures, had succeeded in establishing three, each entirely distinct and separate from the other. It appeared to him that those schools, to be national, should have one system which would meet the requirements of all classes. He should therefore, support the Amendment of his hon. Friend.


said, he felt sure the Amendment was proposed in no unfriendly spirit, and he should have no hesitation in accepting it if he believed it would conduce to the good working of the Bill. He was as much in favour as his hon. Friend of the system of national as distinct from denominational education; and the object of the Bill was to establish a national system in complete harmony with the feelings of the people of Scotland—an object which, notwithstanding many wild words, he felt satisfied it would effect. It provided that aid should be given— To all schools which, in the opinion of the Scotch Education Department, efficiently contributed to the education of the parish or borough in which they were situated; and if the schools, whether of Roman Catholics, Episcopalians, or any of the other denominations in Scotland, satisfied that requirement by providing a good and sound secular education, why, he should like to know, should they not share in the public money voted by Parliament for the purpose of promoting that education under the conditions under which alone they could obtain that money—namely, by submitting to inspection and to all the restraints of a Conscience Clause securing that the schools should be open to children of all denominations? Believing that the Amendment would not conduce to the good working of the Bill, he felt it his duty to oppose it.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes 80; Noes 273: Majority 193.


moved to report Progress.


said, he hoped the Motion would be withdrawn, and that the Amendment which stood in his name, and which was a corollary of the question just decided, would be agreed to.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.


moved to insert in page 24, after line 22, the following words:— Provided that such conditions shall not give any preference or advantage to any school on the ground that it is or is not provided by a school board.


objected to the Amendment.


thereupon moved that the Chairman report Progress.

Motion agreed to.

House resumed.

Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow, at Two of the clock.