HC Deb 11 June 1872 vol 211 cc1615-21

Clause 50 (School fees).

MR. COLLINS

expressed a hope that, considering the lateness of the hour, the Lord Advocate would promise the House not to proceed further to-day than Clause 63, and not to go into the subsequent clauses, which deal with the religious part of the question. Two hours would not be sufficient for their discussion.

THE LORD ADVOCATE

said, he could not at present make such a promise as the hon. Gentleman desired.

MR. ORR EWING

said, that before the clause was agreed to he wished to make an appeal to the Lord Advocate with reference to the discussion which had taken place on Friday last at half-past 6 o'clock with regard to the Amendment of the hon. Member for Edinburgh University (Dr. Lyon Playfair). The Amendment was then lost; but he trusted, nevertheless, that the Government would be disposed to adopt it. The Lord Advocate had stated that he did not look upon the subject raised by the Amendment as a vital question, and at first the right hon. and learned Gentleman appeared ready to adopt it; but subsequently, finding that he could command a majority, he had gone to a division, and had been successful in defeating the Amendment. Notwithstanding, however, the opinion of the right hon. and learned Gentleman, in Scotland the question was regarded as a vital one. All the schoolmasters had a right to their own fees in Scotland, and the proposal of the Government, as contained in the Bill, was simply driving hard terms with the schoolmasters, who, it should be recollected, would have a very powerful influence on the education of the country. He regarded the schoolmasters, for this reason, as the most important part of the schools, and consequently, when he advocated their interests, he believed he was forwarding the interests of the scholars. The system they had hitherto adopted in Scotland had been a most excellent one; and, partly in consequence of the school grants, and partly by the school fees, it had worked most admirably. It had always been stated that hon. Members on that side of the House had misrepresented the opinions of the people of Scotland; but it was a significant circumstance that of the 52 Scotch representatives who took part in the division on Friday, 28 voted for the Amendment proposed by his hon. Friend, and 24 against it. Moreover, three out of the latter were Englishmen, who knew very little about the subject. Besides, that number included six Members of the Government. He thought that, for the future well-being of the education of their children, the Scotch Members ought to ask for some concessions to the general feeling of Scotland, and he hoped the Government would, on the Report being brought up, introduce an Amendment similar to that which his hon. Friend had proposed. It was perfectly evident that it was the intention of his right hon. and learned Friend the Lord Advocate that the school boards should not only appoint head teachers, but all the persons engaged in teaching in the schools. He trusted, however, that the head schoolmasters would still be permitted to nominate their assistants, as otherwise a state of confusion would, in all probability, ensue. He hoped, in conclusion, that his right hon. and learned Friend would make some concessions to their very reasonable demands.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 51 (Teachers houses).

MR. GORDON

rose to move an Amendment. He was unable to understand upon what grounds the schoolmasters were to be deprived of their rights which they lad enjoyed from the earliest times. He denied that the doctrines of political economy were applicable to the case of education, and pointed out that the present Bill was brought in because the supply of education was not equal to the demand for it. He did not see why they should depart from existing rules, unless it was with a view to obliterate all that had hitherto worked so well in the management of the parish schools. He therefore moved the addition of the words of which he had given Notice.

Amendment proposed, In page 19, line 32, to leave out from the word "during" to the word "convenient," in line 36, in order to insert the words "and it shall be the duty of the School Board in every parish to provide a house and garden in such places as they judge convenient, or to allow a reasonable sum in lieu thereof, for every principal teacher; the extent of the accommodation to be provided, or the sum to be allowed in lieu thereof, being subject to the determination of the Scotch Education Department, whose decision shall be final."—(Mr. Gordon.)

MR. M'LAREN

protested against the assumption that this was a question which only affected the schools in counties. The burdens imposed rested mainly on the towns, and of the higher class of day schools there was not one in a county. There were 11 in Royal burghs and two in Parliamentary burghs, and all that was proposed in the Bill was that there should be a common collection in respect of all of them. That had been characterized as an extraordinary proposition, and as one inconsistent with the character and usage of those schools; but he begged to remind the Committee that such was the practice at the present moment in the High School of Edinburgh. In fact, every town or district had its own usage, and the management of these matters ought to be left to the common-sense of the persons concerned. It was proposed by one hon. Member that the salary of schoolmasters in the towns should not be less than £50 or more than £80, and that was said to be in the interests of the teachers, but he maintained that it was against them.

MR. CRAUFURD

said, the hon. Member was speaking on the wrong clause. The clause before the Committee related only to teachers' houses, or a money payment in lieu of such houses.

THE LORD ADVOCATE

said, that the Bill provided that it should be within the discretion of the school board to provide gardens, and when necessary they would have the power to provide houses. The object of the Amendment, however, if he caught the meaning of it aright, was to make it compulsory upon the school board in every parish to provide a house and garden for every teacher under the board. [Mr. GORDON: Every principal teacher.] How could anyone say—"No matter how inconvenient or unsuitable it may be to provide a house and garden for the teacher, it shall be the bounden duty of the school board to provide them." That was the literal meaning of the hon. and learned Gentleman's words. The principle of the Bill on this point was, it might be necessary or it might be convenient to provide schoolmasters' houses and gardens in such places as they thought suitable; and that if they agreed it was necessary, or, short of necessary, convenient, that a certain remuneration be given instead of the house, power was given to do it. The hon. and learned Gentleman had stated on a former occasion that he intended to make it obligatory upon the school board to provide a house and garden for each teacher; but now he corrected himself by saying "principal teacher."

MR. GORDON

called attention to the words "or to allow a reasonable sum in lieu thereof."

THE LORD ADVOCATE

asked what was the use of splitting the money paid to the teacher into parts, and saying "So much is for your salary, and so much in lieu of your house?" Such a proposition almost bordered on the verge of nonsense. With regard to the concession asked for by the hon. Member for Dumbarton (Mr. Orr Ewing) he begged to inform him that he had no intention of acceding to anything of the kind.

MR. ORR EWING

said, the object of his hon. and learned Friend (Mr. Gordon) was to perpetuate in Scotland the system of giving a house and garden to the principal teacher; and with that he most heartily sympathized. They wanted to make the schoolmaster as comfortable as possible, and they desired he should have a house and garden near the school, and feel himself an important man in the district. If they made provision of that kind for him, they would not only raise his status, but promote the interests of the pupils, and therefore they wished to perpetuate the system of parochial schools in Scotland which had been imitated by many of the Free Church schools. He thought everyone not influenced by party motives would support this Amendment. The hon. Member for Edinburgh (Mr. M'Laren), who had been shut up within the walls of that beautiful city, could not be expected to evince the same sympathy in this matter as country Members; but he must be aware of the importance of having as schoolmaster a man who felt that he was respected and cared for.

SIR EDWARD COLEBROOKE

recommended that the clause be altered so as to make it compulsory on the school boards to maintain the houses and gar- dens attached to the schools which already existed.

MR. SINCLAIR AYTOUN

wished to ask the Lord Advocate whether this clause did not give power to the school boards, after parish schools were given them, to sell those schools, or let them for purposes other than those of education?

SIR GRAHAM MONTGOMERY

thought that the present school-houses should be maintained, and that they should not be devoted to other purposes.

MR. CRAUFURD

said, that the Amendment of the hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. Gordon) did not alter the clause, but simply restricted the provision with regard to schools to parishes. He hoped the Lord Advocate would adhere to the clause as it stood.

MR. GORDON

said, he would, if allowed, withdraw his Amendment and propose it again in an amended form, in which shape he hoped it would receive the support of Scotch Members.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment moved, in line 32, to leave out from "during" to "convenient," line 36, and insert— And it shall be the duty of the school board in every parish to provide a house and garden in such place as they judge convenient, or to allow a reasonable sum in lieu thereof for every principal teacher—the extent of the accommodation to be provided, or the sum to be allowed in lieu thereof, being subject to the determination of the Scotch Education Department, whose decision shall be final."—(Mr. Gordon.)

SIR ROBERT ANSTRUTHER

pointed out that there was one feature in the hon. and learned Gentleman's Amendment which had not been noticed at all—namely, that it put vast power in the hands of the Scotch Education Department. He expressed a hope that the clause would remain as it stood in the Bill, as he considered that the matter should be settled between the school master and the local board, because the latter would be fully aware of the importance of doing their best for the schoolmaster.

THE LORD ADVOCATE

said, he could not agree to the proposition of the hon. Baronet the Member for Lanarkshire (Sir Edward Colbrooke) that it should be made a statutory duty of the school board to maintain the school-houses; because, although it might be highly convenient to maintain them in some cases, it might be quite the reverse in others; so that he considered it would be best to leave a certain amount of discretion to be used by the school board. Where there were schoolmasters' residences and gardens in the rural districts it was quite certain that the house would be kept up and devoted to its proper use, while no doubt the school boards would exercise their judgment in the matter in the interests of the districts. But there might be cases in which it would be desirable to use the house and garden as a school-room and play-ground. The houses and gardens were to be vested in the school boards, for the purpose of enabling them to carry out their duties as defined by the statute; and they could not do away with them except as laid down by Act of Parliament. As he had said before, there could be no doubt that in all cases where it was desirable the existing houses would be maintained.

Question put, "That the words 'during the continuance in office of the teachers now in possession thereof, and' stand part of the Clause."

The Committee divided:—Ayes 193; Noes 111: Majority 82.

MR. GORDON

moved to add at the end of clause 51— The School Board shall also pay out of the school fund, and by way of addition to any sums payable out of the Parliamentary grant to each principal schoolmaster or schoolmistress, an annual salary, to be fixed on the occasion of each appointment, of an amount (unless the Scotch Education Department shall in any case otherwise determine) not less than fifty pounds nor more than one hundred pounds in the case of a schoolmaster in a burgh school, and not less than thirty-five pounds nor more than eighty pounds in the case of a school in a landward parish, and not less than twenty pounds nor more than forty pounds in the case of any schoolmistress. The schoolmaster or schoolmistress shall likewise be entitled to the interest or annual produce of any bequest or endowment for his or her behoof.

THE LORD ADVOCATE

said, that, as the question had already been once decided, he must decline to repeat the arguments which he then urged against the proposal.

MR. GORDON

denied that the Amendment was similar to the one which had already been rejected, because the former Amendment involved the question of fees under the Parliamentary grant as well as of salaries. There had been a similar proposal in the Bill introduced last year.

MR. MACFIE

said, he should support the Amendment unless he heard a very strong argument from the Lord Advocate against it. He believed the hon. and learned Gentleman by bringing it forward was doing good service to the schoolmasters and to education generally.

MR. ORR EWING

supported the Amendment, but thought there was little use of going to a division, but to trust that better terms might be obtained for teachers in "another place," where their services might be more appreciated.

Amendment negatived.

Clause agreed to.