§ Clause 20 (Parish schools.)
§ MR. M'LAREN, in moving, in line 16, after "parish," to insert—
Including the power now vested in them by the second recited Act of sending, without payment of fees, such poor children of the parish as shall be recommended by them to any school under the management of the school board of the parish,said, he simply desired to preserve a power which already existed under the Act of 1803.
§ THE LORD ADVOCATEsaid, he had no objection to the proposal.
§ MR. COLLINSsaid, he should like to know whether the result of accepting the proposal would not be to give the preference to board schools over denominational schools, which were outside the General Act—because, if that was so, they were asked to do in Scotland what Parliament had refused to do in England.
§ MR. M'LARENsaid, he could not admit that his proposal would affect the denominational schools in any way. Under the Act of 1803 the heritors, in consideration of the assessment they paid, had the right of sending poor—not pauper—children to the schools without payment of fees, and he proposed to continue that power to them, but to limit them to board or undenominational schools.
§ MR. COLLINSsaid, that by the proposed step they were going to enable the heritors to pay—that was, practically to remit to the parents of the children—the school fees of children who did not absolutely require such assistance; but to confine their attendance to the board schools; which was, in effect, refusing to give assistance of any kind to the children of poor Roman Catholics. It was the 25th clause of the English Act over again, and he objected strongly to the proposal.
§ MR. M'LARENsaid, the hon. and learned Member's opposition was capricious, 1353 for a clause was contained in the Bill—the 66th—which would enable the fees of all children whose parents were too poor to pay them, to be paid by the school board.
§ MR. COLLINSsaid, if that was so, he saw no reason for prejudging the question. Let them leave it for discussion and determination when the 66th clause was reached.
§ MR. MILLERsaid, the question did not arise in the burgh schools, and therefore the hon. and learned Member for Boston need be under no alarm as far as the children of Roman Catholics were concerned. It was never attempted by the heritors to put children into any other than the parish schools in the country districts; so that the payment of the fees fell entirely upon the heritors themselves. This plan was adopted as being more convenient to the local authorities, and had been found to work well.
§ MR. SYNANsaid, he thought the question was one of considerable importance to the ratepayers of Scotland. The heritors, it seemed, had power to send to the schools and pay the fees of children who were not paupers, but only poor—which was a relative term. He thought the ratepayers ought to consider carefully before consenting to a power of this kind being conferred upon the school board.
§ SIR JAMES ELPHINSTONEsaid, he would remind the hon. Member (Mr. Synan) that under the Bill the heritors were the only ratepayers who would be affected, and therefore no particular hardship could be inflicted upon the "ratepayers" by the adoption of the proposal.
§ MR. M'LARENsaid, that since his proposal was objected to, he would withdraw it.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Proviso added.
§ Clause, as amended, agreed to, and ordered to stand part of the Bill.
§ Clauses 21 to 23, inclusive, agreed to, and ordered to stand part of the Bill.
§ Clause 24 (School boards to ascertain amount of accommodation).
§ MR. GORDONsaid, he thought a more exhaustive inquiry than appeared 1354 to be contemplated by the Bill was required. He thought the inquiry should be made by the Board of Commissioners, instead of by a merely local Board.
§ THE LORD ADVOCATEsaid, the House had determined that the duty of seeing that a sufficient amount of accommodation in public schools was provided should be put upon the Department, with the usual Government responsibility to the House of Commons; so that during the three years immediately following the passing of the Act, they should be required to perform the duty through the medium of the Commissioners appointed in Scotland, who should be responsible to them, and for whom they should be responsible to the House. These clauses provided accordingly.
§ MR. GORDONsaid, that as there was a danger of local Boards, in order to save the rates, expressing satisfaction with accommodation which was insufficient, he desired as much as possible to put the local Boards under the control of the central authority.
§ THE LORD ADVOCATEsaid, his desire had been to make provision very much in the sense of his hon. and learned Friend's remarks. The duty was put upon the local Board in the first instance, however, because they were on the spot, were immediately interested in the matter, and had the best means of making the necessary inquiries; but they were required to report the result of their investigations forthwith to the Education Department. The Report would be transmitted in the first instance to the Scotch Commissioners, who, if they were of opinion that the school accommodation was insufficient, were required to specify the amount and the nature of it. Their decision was then subject to review by the Department. That appeared to be exactly what his hon. and learned Friend desiderated.
§ LORD JOHN MANNERSsaid, he must object to the circumlocutory nature of these proposals. The inquiry was to be made by the local Boards, who were to forward the result of their investigations to the new Department in London, which in turn might, on the ground of want of local knowledge, re-transmit the document to the Commissioners in Edinburgh.
§ THE LORD ADVOCATEsaid, he would remind the noble Lord that the Report of the local Board would, in the 1355 first instance, be transmitted to the Commissioners in Edinburgh.
§ LORD JOHN MANNERSNot by this clause, which said that the Report was to be sent to the Scotch Education Department. The whole phraseology of the clause required to be altered in consequence of the change made by Her Majesty's Government with reference to the newly-constituted Board of Commissioners in Edinburgh.
§ THE LORD ADVOCATEsaid, the noble Lord, on looking at the clause he had prepared, would find that it directed all Reports made by local Boards on the subject of school accommodation to be sent, not to the new Education Department, but to the Commissioners.
§ MR. ELLICEwas of opinion that this clause met all the necessities of the case.
§ MR. ORR EWINGthought that, with the view of making this clause harmonize with the new clause, the words, "or the Board of Commissioners" should be added after "Education Department."
§ MR. F. S. POWELLsaid, that according to the English Act the local authority was to send to the Education Department returns containing such particulars respecting elementary schools and children requiring elementary education in their district as the Education Department might from time to time require. But, in examining this clause, the initiative seemed to him to rest wholly with the school boards, and he was afraid that, in consequence, the Returns would be found to differ very much, and just in the same ratio as the school boards had the wish to afford the desired information. The English Act was, in his opinion, far more convenient, and he wished to know whether the Bill as it now stood contained any provision giving a controlling power over those inquiries?
§ THE LORD ADVOCATEsaid, the most complete controlling power was given to the central authority in the phraseology of the clause now under consideration, for it had been already agreed that in Scotland a school board should be established in every parish and burgh, and therefore a statutory local authority was created to deal with this matter in the first instance. This was not so in England, and therefore it was necessary to obtain information for the central authority in another manner, 1356 in order to enable them to consider the advisability of establishing school boards in particular districts. He could assure the hon. Member that the intention of the Bill was to subject these local authorities completely to the control of the central authority in this matter. Perhaps the hon. Member for Dumbartonshire (Mr. Orr Ewing) would be satisfied with the assurance that, although he (the Lord Advocate) could not see how any difficulty could arise from the ambiguity of the phraseology as it stood, yet he was most willing to re-consider the point, and if, after readjusting the clause which constituted the Scotch Commissioners, it should be found necessary to add any words to it, he would undertake to do so.
§ Clause agreed to, and ordered to stand part of the Bill.
§ Clause 25 to 34, inclusive, agreed to, and ordered to stand part of the Bill.
§ Clause 35 (Transference of existing schools to school boards).
§ MR. F. S. POWELLsaid, he wished to make a few remarks on this clause which had reference to the transfer of schools to school boards. Many of the friends of existing schools in England looked with great jealousy on the transfer authorized by the Act, although such transfer was subject to certain limitations which were absent from the Bill under consideration. Then, again, the English Act only referred to elementary schools; whereas by the section referred to any school, however dignified, important, and venerable, might be transferred to the school board, so that the entire character of the teaching might be lowered. That was a point, however, for the consideration of Scotch rather than English Members. In the English section, too, there were various limitations and restrictions, which made the transfer of a school much more difficult than it would be under this Bill. There was, for instance, the right of audience before the Privy Council. He did not see any such right in this section. It was also required that when the need for doing certain things was recognized by the trustees two-thirds must agree. There was no such requirement in this Bill. He desired to protest against the present course being established as a precedent with regard to England, and would express an earnest hope that the 1357 limitations in the English Act would not be removed.
§ MR. WHEELHOUSEsaid, that at the present time some of the schoolmasters had something like fixity of tenure in their office. He felt extremely anxious that the fixity of tenure which had been guaranteed to them should not be interfered with by any subsequent arrangement, and would move an Amendment to that effect, and also providing that no school should be transferred except with the assent of two-thirds of the managers.
§ SIR EDWARD COLEBROOKEmoved to insert words providing that all existing liabilities of managers in respect to contracts or engagements with teachers should be accepted by the school boards and implemented by them.
§ THE LORD ADVOCATEsaid, it was generally understood perfectly well that existing contracts could not be interfered with except by express words, and Parliament would certainly hesitate before it sanctioned any words to defeat existing contracts between employers and employed. Consequently, he thought it would be unnecessary to insert any words to say that no such interference should be implied from the language of the clause. If, however, his hon. Friend entertained any apprehension on this subject, and was not satisfied with his assurance, he should have no objection to insert words expressing that "Nothing in this clause contained shall interfere with any contract between a teacher and any body of school managers."
§ SIR EDWARD COLEBROOKEinquired whether in the case of the transfer of a school to the school board, and the schoolmasters did not receive what they considered proper treatment, their remedy would be against the old trustees, and against them only?
§ THE LORD ADVOCATEsaid, that the law on this matter was quite clear. A contract subsisted until it was legally terminated by the contracting parties, and, as a matter of course, no managers would transfer their school with its teachers without coming to a satisfactory arrangement with the school board. There was nothing in the clause compelling such transfer; but if the managers of a school who desired to transfer it were under existing liabilities towards their teachers, doubtless they 1358 would make satisfactory arrangements before concluding such transfer.
§ SIR JAMES ELPHINSTONEsaid, he should like to know whether the clause would apply to such schools as Madras College, St. Andrews?
§ MR. ELLICEsaid, he had considered the case of the Madras College at St. Andrews, and at the proper time he should move its omission from the schedule.
§ SIR EDWARD COLEBROOKEsaid, he was quite satisfied with the insertion of the words proposed by the Lord Advocate, and, accordingly, he would withdraw his Amendment.
§ Amendment (Sir Edward Colebrooke), by leave, withdrawn.
§ THE LORD ADVOCATEsaid, it was true that the 35th clause was couched in general terms; but Scotch Members knew very well what schools it applied to. It was intended to apply, and did, in truth, apply chiefly to the schools established by the Free Church and the United Presbyterian Church. These were the schools which it was expected would be transferred in large numbers, and placed under the management of school boards. The effect of the change would, of course, be to substitute for the managers now appointed by the Free Church or the United Presbyterian Church the school boards appointed under the provisions of this Bill. These schools were undoubtedly established and maintained by funds derived from contributions and donations, and the contributors and donors of the funds resided all over Scotland—
Frae Maidenkirk to John o'Groat's.Therefore, it would be practically impossible to hold a meeting of the subscribers, and to obtain their sanction to any proceeding. He trusted the hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. Wheelhouse) would not press his Amendment.
§ MR. COLLINSthought it would be sufficient to require the assent of a large majority—say two-thirds—of those who administered the trust.
§ Amendment (Mr. Wheelhouse), by leave, withdrawn.
§ Clause agreed to, and ordered to stand part of the Bill.
§ Clauses 36 to 38, inclusive, agreed to, and ordered to stand part of the Bill.
1359§ Clause 39 (Combination of school boards).
§ MR. GORDONsaid, that when there was an agreement between two local boards to combine their efforts in order to secure a higher grade of education wherever they might think it necessary, they ought to obtain the consent of the Education Department. He would, therefore, move the insertion of the words "with the consent of the Scotch Education Department."
§ THE LORD ADVOCATEsaid, he did not himself think it necessary to impose his control on the local authorities; but if his hon. and learned Friend desired the insertion of the words proposed, he should offer no opposition to the Amendment.
§ MR. CRAUFURDsaid, he must complain that the clause did not confer on the central authority power to force parishes to combine, in the event of their refusing to do so from parsimonious motives. He thought the introduction of the Amendment was wholly unnecessary, as it was injudicious, in his opinion, to give the school boards greater powers than they now possessed under the clause.
§ MR. MILLERalso thought it would be better to allow the clause to remain as it stood.
§ MR. BOUVERIEsaid, he should support the Amendment, for it would enable a rather better description of education to be given in populous parishes and boroughs, when they chose to combine for that purpose. The use of a central department frequently was to inform the local authorities of what was being done elsewhere, and to assist and advise them as to the best mode of doing it.
§ MR. F. S. POWELLsaid, he should also support the Amendment, on the ground that it would prevent a difficulty being experienced in Scotland, which had been the occasion of much disappointment in England under the Act of 1870.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause, as amended, agreed to, and ordered to stand part of the Bill.