HC Deb 11 July 1872 vol 212 cc1003-10

Employment of Women, Young Persons, and Children.

Clause 8 (Educational provisions with respect to boys).

MR. BRUCE moved, in page 2, line 33, after "shall" to insert "attend school."

Amendment agreed to.

MR. BRUCE

then moved, in line 34, to omit— Attend a school which the Lords of the Committee of the Privy Council on Education have recognized as giving efficient elementary education to the children of the district, or, if there be no school in the district which has been so recognized or no school so recognized in which there is room, then any elementary school in the district, and insert, as a fresh sub-section— Where in England or Scotland there is within two miles, measured according to the nearest road, from the residence of such boy, or the mine in which he works, a school which is for the time being in receipt of a Grant out of moneys provided by Parliament, or which is for the time being recognized by the Committee of the Privy Council on Education as giving efficient elementary education, and which the boy can attend, such school, unless the teacher is disqualified under this Act, shall alone be deemed to be a school for the purposes and within the meaning of this Act.

MR. STAPLETON

did not oppose the omission of the words; but if the subsection which it was proposed to substitute were pressed, he must challenge the judgment of the House upon it. He objected to it on the ground that it might involve compulsory attendance at a school to which the parents objected on the ground of religion. It might be a Church school, in which case Dissenters or Roman Catholics might object; or it might be a Roman Catholic school, in which case Protestants would object. And yet the clause was compulsory in its character.

MR. BRUCE

said, that not desiring unnecessarily to raise a debate on the religious difficulty, he would withdraw the sub-section; but should insist on the omission of the words he had proposed should be struck out.

Motion agreed to; words struck out.

Motion to insert words, by leave, withdrawn.

New Clause after Clause 10 (Penalty to enforce attendance of children at school), an Amendment made by inserting after "the parent, guardian, or person"— The following regulations shall apply to every boy of 10 and under 12 years of age employed below ground in any mine to which this Act applies."—(Mr. F. S. Powell.)

Clause 11 (Employment of women, young persons, and children above ground about mines).

MR. BROWN moved an Amendment in the clause to prevent the employment of girls under 16 on the pitbanks, where they were at present employed in company with married men. The practice had decreased somewhat in Northumberland and Durham, but was in full force in other districts, especially Staffordshire and Dorsetshire. As the Bill would still allow women above 16 to be employed, the proposal must be regarded as moderate, and there was no question it would produce valuable results.

Amendment proposed, In page 5, line 11, after the word "effect," and before sub-section 1, to insert the words "No female child or female young person shall be so employed."—(Mr. Alexander Brown.)

MR. RODEN

said, that this question had been already fully discussed and disposed of, and it was taking up the time of the House needlessly to discuss it again. A Committee, and also the Inspectors, had expressed their opinion against any interference with this kind of labour. The persons who were themselves in this work were of a similar opinion. It was desirable, instead of limiting, that they should increase, if possible, the employments open to women.

MR. CANDLISH

reminded the hon. Member that the Amendment did not refer to the employment of women, but only to the employment of females between the ages of 10 and 16, whom it was the duty of the Legislature to protect in every way possible. He trusted that the Government would accept the Amendment.

MR. FLETCHER

opposed the Amendment, on the ground that it was vague. The employment of women on the pit's bank was fully discussed in Committee, and he was sorry the question had been again referred to in that House. In his part of the country the work was not considered degrading, because they were only employed in picking out the refuse coal before it was sent to market.

MR. BRUCE

said, there were two cases in which women were not allowed to be employed—underground and by night; but the present occupation fell within neither of these categories, and the Amendment would introduce a dangerous principle. It would exclude from this kind of work girls between 10 and 16; but why should they be excluded from this work and not from any other?

MR. MUNDELLA

said, that under the Act of last Session girls under 16 were prohibited from working in brickfields. [Mr. BRUCE: Because they carried heavy weights.] This clause would not interfere with the work of women; but it would be a great hardship if they did not exclude in this case females under 16 years of age.

MR. PEASE

said, they were discussing a question that had no practical bearing, and it would be better not to legislate upon it. He had a dislike to see women working at the pit's mouth, and it was rarely done. It would be far better to leave the matter to be settled by public opinion rather than by legislation.

MR. RICHARD

said, a strong resolution was passed by the conference of working miners at Manchester disapproving the employment of women even on the pit-bank; and though the House might not think it well to go so far, they might certainly forbid young girls to work there.

MR. MUNTZ

sympathized with the philanthropy of his hon. Friends, and wished that both girls and women should not be employed in this way. But it was a question of bread and cheese. Women and girls had to work in factories, and there was nothing more demoralizing in work outside a pit than in work in other places.

MR. F. S. POWELL

said, there was a great distinction between the work in the brickfield and that about pit-banks. The evidence given before the Committee went to show the demoralizing condition of the girls in the brickfields; but the tendency of the evidence with regard to the females employed at the pit-bank was of an opposite tendency. There were also many girls who were unable to bear the confinement of the factory, but who found employment at the pit-bank a healthy occupation.

Question put, "That those words be there inserted."

The House divided:—Ayes 63; Noes 118: Majority 55.

Clause 14 (Penalty for employment of persons contrary to Act).

MR. BRUCE moved, in page 6, line 29, after "Act," to insert— And in case of any such contravention or non-compliance by any person whomsoever in the case of any mine, the owner, agent, and manager of the mine shall each be guilty of an offence against this Act, provided that the owner or agent of the mine shall not be deemed guilty if he prove that he had taken all reasonable means by publication and enforcement of the provisions of this Act to prevent such contravention or non-compliance.

MR. F. S. POWELL

complained that the manager was left without protection.

MR. BRUCE

explained that the presumption was that the manager would know all the circumstances.

LORD ELCHO

, as representing to some extent the feelings of those principally concerned, accepted the proposal of the Government as a solution of the difficulty.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Wages.

Clause 15 (Payment of Wages at public-houses, &c.)

MR. ASSHETON

quite approved of the proviso against the payment of wages at public-houses, but thought the clause went too far, as it might prevent the payment at convenient places near the works, and therefore moved, as an Amendment, the omission of the words "or contiguous."

Amendment proposed, in page 7, line 3, to leave out the words "or contiguous."—(Mr. Assheton.)

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."

MR. PEASE

said, the words really applied to a garden or other place connected with a public-house; and the provision had been law for some time, and had caused no inconvenience.

MR. ASSHETON

could not assent to this interpretation, but withdrew his Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, Withdrawn.

MR. BRUCE moved, in page 7, line 11, to leave out "knowingly."

MR. STAVELEY HILL

said, the Committee had accepted the word in the belief that no man could be guilty in respect of an action committed without his knowledge.

Word struck out.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 16 (Payment of persons employed in mines by weight).

MR. GOLDSMID

stated that the hon. Member for Brighton (Mr. Fawcett), who had given Notice of his intention to propose the omission of the clause, was unable to attend from indisposition. He intended, however, on the third reading to move the re-committal of the Bill for the purpose of proposing the omission of the clause, not that he objected to wages being determined by weight, but that he thought it should be left to the masters and men to settle this for themselves.

MR. BRUCE moved, in page 7, line 37, after "Act," insert— And in the event of any contravention of or non-compliance with this section by any person whomsoever in the case of any mine, the owner, agent, and manager of such mine shall each be guilty of an offence against this Act unless he prove that he has taken all reasonable means by publication and enforcement of the provisions of this section to prevent such contravention and non-compliance.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause agreed to.

Certificated Managers.

Clause 24 (Appointment of manager to mine).

Amendment proposed, in page 12, line 25, to leave out the word "ten," in order to insert the word "twenty,"—(Mr. Secretary Bruce,)—instead thereof.

Question proposed, "That the word 'ten' stand part of the Bill."

MR. GATHORNE HARDY

hoped the Amendment would be extended. There were many small mines where only very few persons were employed, varying in number from six or seven to 20 people, and it were scarcely necessary to force certificated managers upon such small mines which were shallow and contained no inflammable gases, but only a small quantity of choke damp. He thought the number of 20 ought to be extended.

MR. RODEN

also hoped the Amendment would be extended. It would be quite sufficient to apply it to mines containing 40 persons or more.

LORD ELCHO

hoped the Government would adhere to their Amendment as it stood. The miners themselves were very desirous that the provisions should not be extended too far.

MR. F. S. POWELL

supported the extension of the Amendment.

MR. PEASE

thought the number of men might be extended to 30.

MR. ELLIOTT

said, it was necessary that even small mines should be examined from time to time by a certificated manager.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment proposed, in page 12, line 25, to leave out the word "ten," in order to insert the word "thirty,"—(Mr. Secretary Bruce,)—instead thereof.

Question, "That the word 'ten' stand part of the Bill," put, and negatived.

The word "thirty" inserted.

Clause 45 (Report of Inspector).

Amendment proposed, In page 21, line 4, after the word "proceedings," to insert the words "he shall state the number of mines visited, the time engaged in the visitation, the condition the mines were in as regards safety and ventilation."—(Mr. H. B. Sheridan,") —instead thereof.

MR. BRUCE

said, that the only result of the Amendment would be to add considerable labour of little, if any, prac- tical utility to the already heavy employment of these gentlemen.

MR. A. EGERTON

said, he would support the Amendment if the last few words were omitted. No advantage could accrue from stating the number and names of the mines not visited.

MR. J. LOWTHER

could see no objection to a provision which would enable them to see that a number of well-paid officials performed their work properly.

MR. PEASE

pointed out that it would work injuriously.

MR. GOLDSMID

observed that this was a question of record only, and as the public paid the Inspectors they were entitled to know how the Inspectors were employed.

MR. STAVELEY HILL

did not think any additional work would be thrown upon the Inspectors by the adoption of the Amendment.

MR. RODEN

believed the proposition would lead to the appointment of more Inspectors, and consequently to increased expense.

MR. GATHORNE HARDY

pointed out that the hon. Member would probably defeat his own object by the adoption of this Amendment, because the Reports of the Inspectors would be overwhelmed with useless information, and become in many instances absolutely unreadable. The duty of the Inspector was to call attention to unusual circumstances in his district, and when necessary the Home Secretary could demand a special Report.

MR. LIDDELL

remarked that formerly the Reports of the school Inspectors were full of dry and uninteresting details, and warned the House against the danger of adopting such a system in the case of the Inspectors of mines.

MR. MUNDELLA

said, these Reports would not necessarily be full of dry details which no one would read, for the Inspectors would probably agree on a tabular form to be appended to their ordinary Reports. He should support the Amendment.

MR. CANDLISH

thought the House would, by accepting the Amendment, take upon itself a duty which properly belonged to the Home Office. He objected to the accumulation of tabulated rubbish.

LORD ELCHO

thought, on the whole, it would not be desirable to accept the Amendment. It would be better to stand by the principle of the Bill, which was not that there should be ocular inspection, but that responsibility should be thrown on the owners and managers of mines.

Question put, "That those words be there inserted."

The House divided:—Ayes 26; Noes 101: Majority 75.

Clause agreed to.

Amendment proposed, In page 29, line 6, after the word "valve," to insert the words "During at least three months after dangerous gas has been found in any mine, a barometer and thermometer shall be placed above ground in a conspicuous position near the entrance to the mine."—(Mr. Secretary Bruce.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

Amendment proposed to the said proposed Amendment, to leave out the words "during at least three months."—(Sir David Wedderburn.)

Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the said proposed Amendment,"put, and negatived.

Amendment, as amended, made.

Amendment proposed, in page 30, line 24, to leave out the word "or," and insert the word "and,"—(Mr. Secretary Bruce,)—instead thereof.

Question proposed, "That the word 'or' stand part of the Bill."

Debate arising;

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Debate be now adjourned."—(Mr. Collins.)

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

Original Question put, and negatived.

The word "and" inserted.

Bill to be read the third time upon Tuesday next, at Two of the clock, and to be printed. [Bill 240.]