COMMITTEE. (Hansard, 31 July 1871)

§ THE SOLICITOR GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. DOWSE)
said, that the object of the Bill was to repeal a section of an Irish Act of 40 Geo. III., which required the sanction of the Lord Lieutenant to bye-laws made by the trustees, a section in a prior Act, 35 Geo. III., had been repealed by the Irish Church Act. The Act of 40 Geo. III was omitted by mistake. The State had now nothing to do with Maynooth. The present number of trustees, all of which might be laymen, was 17, and the Roman Catholics wished the number increased to 28—this was also in the Bill. This was the whole Bill, and was the last Bill of any kind with reference to Maynooth, now completely severed from the State, Parliament would be troubled with.

§ MR. NEWDEGATE
said, it was not until that late hour—two in the morning—that Her Majesty's Government had vouchsafed to give the House the slightest explanation with regard to that Bill. The purport of the Bill was to increase the number of the Governing Body of the College of Maynooth from 17 to 28; when he saw that number of 11 trustees to be added, he confessed that it very much puzzled him to discover the reason for adding that particular number. 624 On further inquiry, however, he found that 28 was exactly the number of the Roman Catholic hierarchy, including His Eminence Cardinal Cullen. Well, what would be the effect of that? There was at present 17 trustees, of whom, according to the old Acts now in operation, by the repeal of the statute of 1845, 11 must be continued as ecclesiastics, and be succeeded by ecclesiastics. If the six existing lay trustees, or a majority of them, thought fit, they might provide clerical successors to the lay trustees, as those might resign, or, in the course of nature, might be removed; and by continually filling up the vacant seats with clerics, they would gradually have Maynooth transferred to the Roman Catholic hierarchy solely. What would be the position of the College then? They would have all the powers under the old Act of George III., passed by the Irish Parliament. Under that Act they would have the power of continuing Maynooth either as a seminary for the exclusive education of ecclesiastics, or of adding thereto a department which should be applied to the education of the laity. They would in that way got a Roman Catholic University established in Ireland exactly on the footing which had been so much objected to by that House—that was to say, exclusively under the control of the Roman Catholic hierarchy; and although it would not have a Charter, it would have more, for it would have the authorization of three Acts of Parliament. By that process which he anticipated on the part of the Roman Catholic hierarchy—namely, the filling up of the places of the existing lay trustees by episcopal successors—they would most effectually establish in Ireland a Roman Catholic College or University precisely on the footing to which that House had constantly objected. Well, he had given Notice that if that Bill went into Committee, he would move an Amendment to the effect that only three of the future trustees who had to be elected should be clerical trustees—that was, out of the 11 now to be elected under the powers of that Bill. The effect of that would be to make the clerical and the lay trustees equal in number—namely, 14 of each: 14 laymen, and 14 ecclesiastics. Now, that was a Governing Body, the constitution of which he could quite understand that House sanctioning; 625 but he did not think that that House would willingly proceed to grant further powers or exemptions to any exclusively clerical body in the control of that large property and the privileges connected with it, without re-considering the statutes under which the College of Maynooth was at present governed. That House should remember that the Act of 1845 (Sir Robert Peel's Act) was repealed, and that if they passed that Bill, as now proposed, there was nothing to prevent the establishment of Maynooth hereafter as an exclusively Roman Catholic institution, under the exclusive direction of the Roman Catholic hierarchy. For his part, he did not believe that that was the intention of that House, and unless the hon. and learned Gentleman (the Solicitor General for Ireland) who had charge of that Bill gave an assurance that there should be some provision introduced that should secure the perpetuity of the lay element—since the establishment of Maynooth had never received the sanction of Parliament, except as governed by a body consisting partly of laymen; no grant, indeed, had ever been made to it except upon that understanding — and considering that virtually that Bill provided the means of changing the constitution of the College of Maynooth in the direction to which that House had always objected, by making it an exclusively ecclesiastical seminary, through the process which he (Mr. Newdegate) expected to see carried out by the Roman Catholic hierarchy—for that reason he should propose that that Bill be read that day two months, unless, as he said, Her Majesty's Government gave some assurance that in Committee they would take measures to secure that the future constitution of the Governing Body of the College should be in some degree analogous to that which had hitherto existed; and that could only be effected by providing that hereafter, as heretofore, a certain proportion of the trustees should be laymen.

§ THE SOLICITOR GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. DOWSE)
said, he must decline to give any such pledge as that required by the hon. Gentleman the Member for North Warwickshire (Mr. Newdegate). The only qualifications in the Acts of Geo. III for the trustees was that they should be natural-born subjects of the Crown. There were now 626 17 trustees, all of whom were clergymen, except one. The new trustees were always elected by the surviving trustees. The Bill had no effect except to increase the number.

§ MR. NEWDEGATE
said, that Motion gave him an opportunity of briefly commenting upon the statement which had just been made by the hon. and learned Gentleman the Solicitor General for Ireland. That hon. and learned Gentleman said that he hoped the House would not be so illiberal, now that it was framing a new constitution for the College of Maynooth, as to clog it with any conditions. That hon. and learned Gentleman seemed to forget that he was asking them to pass an Act which was to possess those new trustees with that large property. Was it unreasonable or illiberal that they should indicate the nature of the body to whom the property was to be transferred? Did he mean to ask them to make over that property to the exclusive control of the Roman Catholic hierarchy, because, as he informed them, all the lay trustees had resigned? Did not that tally with the statement which he (Mr. Newdegate) had made to that House—that the number 28 was the number of the Roman Catholic hierarchy; and if all the lay trustees had resigned, and they were to add 11 to the present number, there would be 17 to be elected, and if all those 17 were to be Archbishops and Bishops of the Roman Catholic Church—which he understood to be the expectation of the hon. and learned Gentleman—they would be constituting, in fact, a Roman Catholic University, because there was power under the old Acts to connect with that College a lay department—in other 627 words, to attach a lay College to Maynooth. Why, that was constituting a Roman Catholic University under the exclusive direction of the Roman Catholic hierarchy. Now, he was perfectly certain that of hon. Members present at that moment in that House, not ten came down with the expectation of hearing that that was the real meaning of the Bill before the House. He should not attempt at that moment to propose any amendment of the Bill, because from the statement of the hon. and learned Gentleman that the six lay trustees had resigned, any Amendment to be effectual must go far beyond his, and must provide for retaining in the constitution of that new body at least the same proportion, if not a larger proportion of laymen than had ever been retained by Parliament for the government of that institution. For that reason he should take no further part in that discussion; but when the Bill came on for third reading he should certainly move an Amendment, the object of which would be to secure that, in the future government of Maynooth, there should not be a smaller proportion of laymen than had hitherto been. He was not going to divide the Committee on the present occasion, because he was not duly informed of the real nature and extent of that change until he heard the explanation of the hon. and learned Gentleman. He should not, therefore, put the Committee to the trouble of going a division until the House could act deliberately, and with a full knowledge of what it was asked to do by that Bill.