§ MR. DIXONasked the First Lord of the Treasury, whether, having regard to the recommendations of the Committee on the Civil List in 1838, that inquiries should be instituted and directions given, "from time to time," in order to enforce the observance in the departments of the Civil List of the same principles of economy which are acted upon in all the branches of ordinary Public Service,—Her Majesty's Government will, with the permission of Her Majesty, institute inquiries into the present appropriation of the Charges on the Civil List, with the view of ascertaining, if it be possible, without interference with the personal income, dignity, or convenience of the Sovereign, to effect more economical arrangements by the abolition, consolidation, or reduction of any 157 superfluous ceremonial offices, maintained at an excessive cost, or by the extinction of other Charges upon the Civil List that may be found unnecessary; and, whether Her Majesty's Government will communicate to Parliament the results of such inquiry before any further demands are made upon the Country in respect of provision for Members of the Royal Family by additional taxation?
MR. GLADSTONESir, when my hon. Friend put a Question on a former day in relation to certain arrangements of the Royal Household, I answered him without making any preliminary objection to his question, because I thought my hon. Friend was governed entirely by the wish that for the benefit of Her Majesty and Her Majesty's establishment the Royal Houshold should in all respects be administered in an economical manner. As he intimated an opinion that any savings which could be made in the expenditure under the Civil List ought to go to the profit, not of Her Majesty, but of the public, I am obliged to point out to him that I think this is entirely a wrong view of the position of the Civil List and of Her Majesty with with regard to it. The Civil List is a contract of a very solemn nature between the Sovereign and Parliament, entered into at the commencement of the reign, and all advantage that may be derived from the economical administration of the Civil List is advantage strictly accruing to the Crown, and no one else; and, in my opinion, it is most important for Parliament to maintain that principle. First of all, because, if you do not, you give very little encouragement to the Sovereign, and to those immediately under the Sovereign, to set about and to perform steadily the difficult and invidious duty of enforcing economy; and, secondly, because I think, if Parliament were to advance a claim, and were to realize for the advantage of the country the moneys which would accrue in case the Civil List were ever found to be more than sufficient, Parliament would expose itself to a most dangerous counter claim on the part of the Sovereign in case the Civil List were found at any time to be less than sufficient. On that account it is impossible for me to say I regard economies under the Civil List as having any connection whatever with the interests of the Ex- 158 chequer and of the Consolidated Fund. The hon. Member has fallen into error with regard to the Committee of 1838. I am not aware of such Committee as he names; but there was a Committee on Pensions in 1838, and that Committee took into view, I believe, pensions on the Civil List, which constituted a distinct branch of the Civil List of limited amount, and did not form a general charge on the Civil List. There was a Committee, no doubt, upon the Civil List, preparatory to the passing of the Act by which it is now regulated, and that Committee sat in 1837, and not in 1838. Under the Civil List Act, it is the duty of the Government to render assistance, through the Department of the Treasury, to Her Majesty, for the purpose of administering the Civil List; but that assistance is carefully defined, the nature of the interference which is exercised by the Treasury is limited by law, and the Government never interferes in the administration of the Civil List except by the desire of Her Majesty and for the benefit of Her Majesty. Consequently, I think the question is founded on a misapprehension as to the nature of the arrangements by which the expenditure of the Crown is provided for under the Act. Briefly, then, there was no Committee on the Civil List to my knowledge in 1838; and I will also say I am not aware there is any important margin of saving to be effected by the reduction of offices under the Civil List. As I said before, I believe certain arrangements of an economical nature were made, which were to take effect on the cessation of certain vested interests; but I do not believe they embraced any considerable sum; and if there were any sum realized by economy it would go to the benefit of Her Majesty, and the Exchequer would have no interest in it. It would not be our duty—indeed, it would be contrary to our duty, if we were to withdraw from the fulfilment of an honourable understanding between the Crown and Parliament in regard to the provision for members of the Royal Family until we have made certain inquiries into the administration of the Civil List, which we have no time to make, and in regard to which I believe, if they were made, they would have no result at all tending materially to vary the nature and amount of the expenditure of the Crown.