HC Deb 13 July 1871 vol 207 cc1634-46
MR. G. BENTINCK

rose to ask the First Lord of the Treasury, When it was intended to proceed with the Army and Navy Estimates; and, as he wished to make a few remarks, he would put himself in Order by moving the adjournment of the House. This was the seventh time in the course of a very few weeks that he had thought it his duty to put this Question to the right hon. Gentleman at the head of Her Majesty's Government, and on no single occasion had he been able to extract an answer of any description from the right hon. Gentleman. The importance of the subject involved in his Question did away with the necessity of his offering any apology to the House for the course he had taken. His Question practically involved an accusation against the Government, and, he might also say, against the House; and he hoped, therefore, to have the attention of both while he made the remarks he was going to make. ["Oh, oh!] He was perfectly in Order if hon. Members would only extend to him that courtesy which they generally extended to Members addressing the House. Now, he apprehended no hon. Gentleman would attempt to deny that the first duty of the House of Commons was to carefully scrutinize the Estimates for the year, and the duty became more imperative when the Government and a majority of the House was composed of right hon. and hon. Gentlemen who had been always loud in their professions of economy. What was the course which the Government had taken up to the present time? They were persistently deferring the consideration of the Army and Navy Estimates to a period of the Session when all scrutiny on the part of the House of Commons became utterly impossible. It was very often the case that a precedent was quoted as a justification for some course of action; but, with the exception of the course adopted by the present Government last year, there was none, so far as he could find, for deferring the consideration of the Army and Navy Estimates to so late a period of the Session. During the preceding ten years, with the exception of last year, the consideration of these Estimates had never been deferred to so late a period of the Session. And he found, moreover, that the preceding Government had not adopted the course pursued by the present Government, but they had brought up the Estimates at a time which afforded an ample opportunity to the House of discussing them, and he hoped to have their assistance in discountenancing a course which he held to be utterly unconstitutional. There were other reasons why it appeared to him to be positively culpable on the part of the Government for not bringing the Estimates forward sooner—namely, charges had been brought against the Government which it seemed they were very much disinclined to meet. His right hon. Friend the Member for Tyrone (Mr. Corry) had a very strong case to prefer against the Government, and his hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth (Sir James Elphinstone) had also had pending against them for weeks a charge which he had had no opportunity of bringing forward. Now, when such charges were pending against any Government it was their duty to give an opportunity of making these charges fairly and frankly, instead of adopting an unconstitutional course of trying to deal with them. But there was still a stronger reason for calling the attention of the House to this subject. He had ascertained within the last three or four days, that in consequence of the delay involved in considering the Army and Navy Estimates, there would be a considerable increase of expenditure, owing to the facts that the contracts required for building purposes in the engineering department could not be entered into and finished at so late a period of the year without largely raising the amount, in consequence of the approach of shorter days and bad weather. So that they were actually paying more on certain building works connected with that Department because Government refused to bring forward their Estimates. He left that to the consideration of hon. Members opposite, who were advocates of economy. This course had been taken by a Government who had come into office on a cry of economy. They had heard of nothing but retrenchment when the present Government took office. It was impossible to know what the opinions of the right hon. Gentleman at the head of Her Majesty's Government were at any particular period of the year. That which the right hon. Gentleman held to be black last year he held to be white now; and therefore it was needless to waste time considering what his opinions were. But there were other right hon. Members of the Government who were also sharing in what he considered to be an unconstitutional course; there was the right hon. Gentleman at the head of the War Department—why, he came into office notoriously for the purpose of affecting retrenchment. They had the authority of a noble Earl in "another place," who had stated distinctly that the right hon. Gentleman was put in the position he now occupied to carry out a system of retrenchment, and the noble Earl had added that he had ably fulfilled his task. Next, there was the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Admiralty; he was also closely connected with the retrenchment party, and he also advocated a most rigid economy. What was the course he had proceeded upon? He was a party to protracting the Estimates, a party to the policy which did not give the House an opportunity of discussing them. He would now appeal to a more powerful section of the House than Government. He would appeal to hon. Members below the gangway who, until a few days ago, had always governed the Government. He regretted the change which had taken place in this respect. There had certainly been an indication that Government was losing its power; but now there was a remarkable and ominous silence on the Liberal benches. He trusted, however, these days were over, and that hon. Members opposite would—

MR. RATHBONE

rose to Order. He wished to know whether it was open to the hon. Member to discuss every possible subject on the Motion for Adjournment.

MR. SPEAKER

The House, when deciding that debates should not be permitted to arise when Questions were asked, reserved cases of emergency when a Member might obtain the privilege of speaking for moving the adjournment of the House. That point was considered in the Committee on the Business of the House, and it was agreed not to disturb the existing state of the Rule, but to leave it, in the hope that discretion would be ever used, and great forbearance practised regarding the Business of the House; and under that impression, and with that understanding, the Rule was maintained as it now stands.

MR. G. BENTINCK

said, that when he rose to address the House he took upon himself the entire responsibility, He thought it was not quite becoming on the part of hon. Members opposite, to say nothing of the courtesy, to endeavour to stop a discussion which involved a certain amount of censure on themselves. He had to ask hon. Members opposite, who had always been the loudest in advocating economy, whether they were prepared to sanction an evasion of the old rules of practice in that House, and to allow the Army and Navy Estimates to be deferred to a period of the Session when it was no longer in their power to scrutinize them? Hon. Gentlemen opposite had been very fond of charging them on that side of the House with being advocates of extravagance; but who were now the advocates of extravagance? Hon. Gentlemen opposite should bear in mind that they had already sanctioned during the Session an expenditure of about £40,000,000 for which they had nothing to show, and they were then about to sanction the course taken by the Government in refusing the appeal which he made to them to bring forward the Estimates at a time when they would be properly and fairly discussed. He asked them whether they were willing to relinquish their just rights as Members of that House and to neglect their first duty to those who sent them there. ["No!] He was glad to hear that hon. Members were so independent, not only of the Government, but also of their constituents; but when they came to give an account of their conduct during the present Session, they would have a very strange tale to tell. He would recommend them, in the short time left to them, to do something to retrieve their character. He would ask the House not to sanction a course which was unconstitutional, which deprived them of their first rights, and which, if persevered in, would add to the burdens imposed by taxation on the people of this country. He intended to divide the House on this occasion, and to take the division as a test whether hon. Members were or were not determined to support the Government in the course they were adopting, so that the country might know on whom it could trust and on whom it could not. He moved that the House do now adjourn.

SIR FREDERICK W. HEYGATE

, in seconding the Motion, referred to the ruling of the Speaker—that anyone who had asked a Question, and imagined that it related to a matter of urgency, would probably receive attention from the House—and, having remarked that he was not in the habit of obstructing Public Business, said the answer he had received from the noble Lord the Chief Secretary for Ireland, with regard to the hour when the Irish Education Vote would be taken, would justify him in saying a few words. He wished to recall to the memory of the Chief Secretary a deputation which he received on that question—one representing the very large body of Irish schoolmasters who brought forward the grievances under which they long suffered, and his reply given to them that the question should be considered by the Government and disposed of. From that hour the matter had been neglected, and the noble Lord now bid Irish Members wait until the Irish Education Estimates were discussed, when he said there would be an opportunity of debating the whole question. At this advanced period of the Session, when the matter would probably come on at the end of a long Evening Sitting, or after a great number of Notices of Motion on going into Committee of Supply had been disposed of, he wished to ask whether the answer he had received was worthy of the subject, or in any way calculated to satisfy those who were interested in it? He hoped that the Prime Minister would state to them precisely how the matter stood, and would give them some definite information upon the subject.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn,"—(Mr. Bentinck,)

MR. GLADSTONE

The hon. Member for West Norfolk says it is the first duty of Members of the House of Commons carefully to examine the Estimates. I take exception to that statement. There is one other duty—though there may be only one—that takes precedence of it, and that is to observe, in their spirit as well as in their letter, the Rules and Orders of the House. The hon. Gentleman said he placed himself in Order by moving the adjournment. There is a line of Tennyson which runs— His honour rooted in dishonour stood. And I will take the liberty of parodying it and saying— His order rooted in disorder stood. The hon. Member, it appears to me, professing a discretion, abused that discretion, and has done so for the purpose of obstructing the Business of this House. If the hon. Gentleman thinks the Government has done wrong in not setting aside the legislative business on which it is now engaged for the purpose, not of introducing the Army and Navy Estimates, but of taking the remaining Votes in them, the hon. Gentleman has plenty of legitimate opportunities of raising that question—the financial Motions and the Orders of the Day that are made every week give the hon. Gentleman those opportunities. However, he says he has acted on his own discretion, he assumes the responsibility of raising this discussion. In the same manner I act upon my discretion, and I assume the responsibility of declining to enter into it. I shall be perfectly ready if the hon. Gentleman, when. Supply is moved, or on any other regular occasion, chooses to call attention to what he may think a very needless expenditure of time, and I shall deem it my duty, out of respect to him and the rights of Members of the House, freely to debate the question whether we have done right or wrong in proceeding at the present juncture with legislative business rather than taking the remaining Votes in Supply; but upon the present occasion, when the hon. Gentleman is, it appears to me, misusing the discretion which undoubtedly the forms of the House give, I feel it also to be my duty entirely to decline to follow him, and to refrain from discussing either that subject or the subject raised by the Seconder of the Motion with respect to the question that he had put. With reference to the latter, however, it is my duty to make reply that I can only say we are very desirous to find time when we can to proceed with the remaining Votes in Supply; but we are not prepared to name a day for the purpose until we have made further progress with the Elections (Parliamentary and Municipal) Bill.

SIR JAMES ELPHINSTONE

considered that an hon. Gentleman taking the course which had been adopted by the hon. Member for West Norfolk (Mr. G. Bentinck), he must act under a deep sense of responsibility; but on the present occasion he was ready to bear his share of the responsibility, because he considered that the question under discussion was one of the most important that could come before the House. There were Notices on the Paper as to which he agreed with his hon. Friend the Government were neither anxious nor prepared to meet them. He had a Notice with reference to the Navy Estimates—

MR. BOUVERIE

rose to Order, and called attention to the fact that the hon. Member for West Norfolk had on the Paper for that day a Notice of Motion— That it is not expedient that the consideration of the Navy and Army Estimates be longer deferred. In the ordinary course of business, this Motion would come on after the Orders of the Day, this being a day on which the Orders had precedence. The present Motion was one for adjournment, and it was out of Order now to discuss by anticipation that of which the hon. Member for West Norfolk had given Notice. This would be giving precedence to a Notice of Motion over Orders of the Day, contrary to the settled order of business. They could not in that way anticipate a separate Notice of Motion which stood for subsequent discussion after the Orders of the Day had been read.

MR. SPEAKER

The right hon. Member (Mr. Bouverie) is perfectly correct; and the hon. Baronet the Member for Portsmouth (Sir James Elphinstone) is not in Order in introducing on the present Motion questions which would arise upon a future Motion of which Notice has been given.

SIR JAMES ELPHINSTONE

bowed to this decision, and would not pursue the matter further than to say that hon. Members, in postponing the consideration of the Estimates to a period of the Session at which they could not be discussed, were pursuing a course which they could not justify to their constituents. He repudiated the insinuation of obstructiveness, and affirmed that hon. Members on his side of the House had as strong a wish as any others to forward Public Business—["Oh, oh!]—that was, the legitimate public business of the country—as any hon. Member in the House or the Government themselves; but when they saw the Session overlaid with measures brought forward simply to be withdrawn, whilst the real Business of the House was kept in abeyance, he could not desist from assisting his hon. Friend in his endeavours to get real business expedited and brought before the House when it could be properly considered.

MR. NEWDEGATE

said, nothing could be more remarkable than the apparent acquiescence of hon. Members on the Government side of the House in a great change attempted in the manner of conducting the Public Business. The Prime Minister had said that the first duty of the House was legislation, and not the guardianship of the public purse. ["No, no!] That maxim was novel, and it was with regret he found it apparently accepted by hon. Members opposite, filling as they did the places of those who formerly maintained that it was the first right and duty of the House to guard the public purse. There was a great contrast between the neglect of this duty now and the manner in which it had been performed by Mr. Hume and others; and if many hon. Members had had the opportunity of witnessing the proofs of research and ability formerly brought to bear upon this subject as he (Mr. Newdegate) had, they would be equally conscious of the contrast between the past and the present conduct of the occupants of those benches. The general conduct of Public Business had been referred to a Select Committee, which had been reported, but its Resolutions had been totally disregarded. As a Chairman of that Committee the Chancellor of the Exchequer sought to induce the House to change its ancient forms, so that the legislation proposed by the Government might take undue precedence over the Motions of individual Members, and the Estimates. The Committee did not acquiesce in what was thus proposed to it on the part of the Government, and yet hon. Gentlemen were now practically opposing the decision of the Committee by sanctioning the course which was recommended by the Government. Agitation had been transferred from the country to this House; Session after Session the Government brought in sensational measures of a subversive character, which engaged the attention of the House to the total displacement of its legitimate business. This novel course was not conducive to the maintenance of the due position of the House in public estimation, and the House was losing ground in public opinion by departure from well-established precedents. He was glad the hon. Member for West Norfolk (Mr. G. Bentinck) had called attention to this change, for hon. Members opposite seemed to conceive that support of the Government, by voice and by silence, was the sole object for which they were returned; they seemed willing to merge their individual character in party distinction, and they were sacrificing that which this country valued—individual, direct, and independent representation of the constituencies in that House. He wished to call the attention of the Prime Minister to the fact that there was no opportunity at which the hon. Member for West Norfolk could bring forward the Motion of which he had given Notice at any reasonable hour of the day, and to inquire whether, as Leader of the House, he intended to afford facilities for discussing the substance of that Notice. In reply to the remarks of the right hon. Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Bouverie) that the present Motion was irregular, as touching the Notice on the same subject given for that day by the hon. Member for West Norfolk, he (Mr. Newdegate) would remind the right hon. Gentleman of his own Motion, that no controverted business should be commenced at half-past 12 at night, which had been adopted by the Committee on Public Business and formed one of their Resolutions; and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Kilmarnock who carried the Resolution to this effect in the Committee on Public Business must feel that his own Resolution virtually condemned his recent observations upon the Motion of which Notice had been given by the hon. Member for West Norfolk; for he must perfectly well know that it was impossible for the hon. Member to bring forward that Motion at an hour that night which was proper for its discussion.

MR. DISRAELI

I am unwilling to prolong this interruption to the ordinary course of Public Business, but after the conversation which has occurred, and the remarks made by the Prime Minister, I cannot be silent, lest from my silence it should be inferred that I am not sensible of the extremely embarrassing circumstances in which the House is placed, and which are every day becoming; more and more embarrassing, with respect to the transaction of Public Business. I must say I am not surprised that the hon. Member for West Norfolk (Mr. G. Bentinck), or any other hon. Member, should call the attention of hon. Members to what is their first duty. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman might have seized a more convenient opportunity; but I confess that I am at a loss at this moment to assist him or any other hon. Member who wishes to bring forward such a question in finding a more convenient opportunity. There have been imputations of faction made against hon. Gentlemen on this side of the House, and against some hon. Gentlemen on the other side of the House, but there is one kind of faction of which they cannot be guilty; it certainly cannot be said of them that they had attempted to stop the Supplies, for we have not had for some time a Committee of Supply to give them the opportunity of doing so. In the remarkable state in which the Business of the House is now placed, I want to know how any hon. Member can obtain any redress whatever except by a Motion like the present. After the technical objection which has just been taken by the right hon. Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Bouverie), and which I believe is just, I will not treat of the Army and Navy Estimates save to make this observation, which I have a right to make—that there has been an important Committee of the other House of Parliament on the state of the administration of the Navy, that the Report of that Committee has been sent down to this House, and that a right hon. Gentleman, a friend of mine (Mr. Corry), who, it will be agreed on both sides of the House is competent to offer an opinion upon it, has no opportunity of bringing the matter forward. That is a question which of all others must interest the nation, and there should be, at least in this House, a feeling that it becomes those who manage Public Business to give due opportunities to Members on both sides to bring forward questions of such paramount importance. I think there are other Members who are waiting for opportunities to bring Motions forward. I do not know what Scotch Members think, but no doubt they are satisfied. Scotch Members are always satisfied—["No, no!]—always satisfied, I mean with the existing administration. But I am not aware that the conduct and progress of Scotch measures this Session has been such that hon. Members can rejoin their constituencies with cheerful countenances. I am surprised that Scotch Members have not expressed their dissatisfaction with the position in which popular education in Scotland is placed, and have stopped in their career to endeavour to ascertain what is the cause of it. We have other matters of gravity before us, and among them the recommendations of the Sanitary Commission. There is no subject of greater moment for the defence of the country than the health of our countrymen. We talk of our first line of defence and of our last; but, after all, both depend upon the health of the country, and every year we are becoming more degenerate, and the rate of mortality is increasing among us from our neglect of those recommendations of the Sanitary Commission which the Government are pledged to legislate upon. Here is the Session over, and not a single measure passed. What is the cause of it? I say we have a right to ask. In old days it used to be said that the principal duties of the House of Commons were to guard the public purse, and to secure the due administration of justice. I say nothing in addition to what has been said about the public purse; but if there was anything of primary importance, scarcely inferior to the defence of the kingdom and the Empire, it was the necessity for establishing immediately a tribunal of ultimate appeal. The neglect by Parliament of its duties in that respect has led to the greatest difficulties and even dangers to Empire; yet here is Parliament on the point of being prorogued. We have at the utmost another month. ["No, no!] Will you in the course of that month be able to establish a tribunal of ultimate appeal becoming the occasion? Will you be able to legislate in unison with the recommendations of the Sanitary Commission? Will you be able to consider the administration of the Admiralty Board? Why not? Because you are engaged upon something else which has forced you to neglect your most valuable public duties, and is the cause of the House of Commons being placed in a situation in which it is fast losing the consideration of the country. What is that "something else?" It is the Ballot—a Bill which I will say was the most unnecessary measure that could be brought into Parliament; for it is a measure merely to put into practice the ideas of a past generation, and to use old and antiquated materials which all practical men have always viewed with suspicion, and which now the most advanced philosophers repudiate and reject. Why is this Bill brought in to absorb the attention of the House of Commons? Why are all this time and labour to be diverted from the fulfilment of those great public duties to which I have adverted? Why is all this old stuff brought before us? Only because the Prime Minister has been suddenly converted to an expiring faith, and has passionately embraced a corpse. An hon. Gentleman contradicted me, or, at least, denied the justice of my observation, when I said that our labours are nearly at an end. I repeat, however, that we have arrived at a period when we should all contemplate the termination of our labours; but let us hope that we may have an opportunity of regaining our character, and that we may in the course of the month that is left be able to do something which will enable us to meet our constituents without shame. But do you think that will be done by spending your nights and mornings upon such a worn-out antiquated frivolity as secret voting? Secret voting is a process which would very well have suited the contracted constituencies of the 18th century or the beginning of the present one; but our existing constituencies, which contain large numbers of voters, are quite superior to anything like general corruption, and are animated by a sympathy so extended that they could protect any part of their body from anything like oppression. Do you think that those large constituencies will be satisfied that we should pass our days and nights in such a labour, when we are neglecting such important subjects as the popular education of Scotland, and the recommendations of the Sanitary Commission on which the Government are pledged to legislate and on which the public health depends? All these matters are entirely neglected; and there is a rising conviction in the public mind that we are neglecting all the substantial subjects, which as practical men and real legislators for the people and their interests they look look upon us to fulfil and to accomplish.

Question put, and negatived.