SUPPLY—NAVY ESTIMATES. (Hansard, 11 August 1871)

MR. CORRY
said, that he wished to call attention to the very unsatisfactory state in which this Vote had been presented to them. Three years ago everything was upset at the Admiralty, and down to the present time nothing had been permanently re-organized. This state of things naturally caused great dissatisfaction to gentlemen employed in the Office, and some of the best clerks had left the Admiralty, being absolutely disgusted at the suspense in which they had been kept so long. It appeared in the Estimates that numerous clerks were employed provisionally in lieu of writers. But in the Navy List the whole of these gentlemen appeared in the list as established clerks, and no one knew what his position really was. All these gentlemen were living in the hourly apprehension of being dismissed, and the state of things was intolerable to them and extremely injurious to the service. Removing gentlemen from one department to another, and putting them into inferior positions, was most distressing to them. For example, a gentleman, named Spencer, was just about becoming a first-class clerk in the Storekeeper's department when he was removed to the Accountant General's department, where he was placed 53 from the top of the second-class list, and 10 or 12 years must elapse before his promotion. The fate of Sisyphus was hardly more cruel than that of this gentleman. The Admiralty were treating "their own flesh and blood" like pawns upon the chess-board, and removing gentlemen from place to place to suit official convenience, without the slightest regard to what was due to the interest of individuals or to justice. He hoped that the Department would soon be re-organized upon a permanent footing, so that gentlemen employed there might know the worst, and not be kept longer in a state of suspense.

§ MR. SHAW LEFEVRE
said, that no doubt there had been a considerable change in two years, for there was a reduction of expenditure in the Office of no less than £32,000 a-year. It had 1472 been attempted to re-organize the Department, so that it should be treated as a whole, and promotion should flow through it as a whole. The intention was to reduce the number of established clerks, and supply their places with writers as they became vacant. There was, however, no intention to dismiss any of the clerks, but only to supply their places as they became vacant. No complaint had reached him in reference to the case of Mr. Spencer, and his (Mr. Shaw Lefevre's) impression was that the case was not one of hardship.

SIR JOHN HAY
said, that the reduction which had taken place was, as he made it out, thus—The net increase by the present Government of the Civil Pension List in connection with the Admiralty Vote 3, has been £28,749; of this, £9,559 12s. 2d. was for the Admiralty Office alone, which we may compare thus under Vote 3–1869–70, decrease £13,660; 1870–71, decrease £13,442; being a total of £27,102. From this deduct increase, 1871–2, £4,131, they had the actual reduction claimed of £22,971; from this abating the Civil Pensions, £9,560, and the excess Expenditure, 1869–70, of £9,074, they had an actual saving of only £4,337. This, he repeated, was the only amount of saving that had arisen from all the violent changes that had taken place.

§ MR. SHAW LEFEVRE
said, the real reduction was £32,689; but from this there had to be deducted at present £24,000 for pensions, leaving a net saving of upwards of £8,000. The amount payable for pensions, however, would be constantly decreasing.

MR. CORRY
said, he wished to ask whether he was to understand, from what had fallen from the Secretary of the Admiralty, that the intention was that the gentlemen in the Admiralty should not be removed to make way for others, but that their places were only to be filled as they became vacant in the ordinary course of things. If this were so, a great deal of suspense would be removed.

§ MR. SHAW LEFEVRE
said, he could not give a positive assurance.

§ MR. RYLANDS
said, he understood that the object of appointing writers instead of clerks was to get rid of superannuation, and this he thought was a very good principle.

§ MR. SHAW LEFEVRE
said, no doubt this was a great object.