NEW CLAUSES.

HC Deb 03 August 1871 vol 208 cc802-23

THE CHAIRMAN

informed the Committee that the Government had the privilege of proposing the new clauses which they wished to insert before new clauses could be proposed by any private Member.

MR. W. E. FORSTER

proposed to insert, before Clause 7, the following clause— ("Time of notice of Election and of nomination and poll.) In a Parliamentary Election the returning officer shall give notice of the time and place at which he will proceed to the Election, and fix the day of Election, as follows (that is to say):

1. 1. In the case of a borough, he shall give such notice on or on the day after the day on which he receives the writ, and shall fix the day for the Election not later than the fourth day after that on which he receives the writ, and shall give not less than two clear days' notice of the day so fixed:
2. 2. In the case of an Election for a county, he shall give the said notice within two days after the day on which he receives the writ, and shall fix the day for the Election not later than the ninth day after that on which he receives the writ, and shall give not less than three clear day's notice of the day so fixed.

The poll shall take place on such day as the returning officer may appoint, not being in the case of a Parliamentary Election for a county or a combination of boroughs less than two nor more than six, and in the case of any other Parliamentary Election more than three, clear days after the day fixed for the Election. The right hon. Gentleman said, these periods had been fixed after a good deal of painful examination in order not to give more time than seemed absolutely necessary. The result was but a very little alteration in the present mode.

MR. ASSHETON CROSS

inquired why, if the notice in the borough was to be given on the day on which the writ was received, or on the day after, it was not to be given in the county sooner than two days.

MR. SCLATER-BOOTH

said, that at the last General Election in 1868, the shortening of the period for giving notice of the day of election (under an Act passed in that year) was attended with very beneficial results. Therefore he hoped the right hon. Gentleman had made the period for giving such notice as short as possible.

MR. W. E. FORSTER

said, he could state the difference between the present law and the intended law. A little more time was necessary between the nomination and the day of election on account of the preparation of the ballot paper. As to boroughs, according to the present law, suppose the writ was received on July 1, the last day for giving notice would be on July 3. According to the proposed law the last day would be July 2. According to the present law the first day for nomination would be July 5; according to the proposed law it would be July 4. July 5 would be the last day for nomination, and also the first day for polling for boroughs. According to the present law the first day for polling would be July 6. The last day for polling for boroughs it was proposed should be July 9, according to the present law it was July 8. As to counties—again supposing that the writ was received on July 1—according to the present law the first day for nomination would be July 5; no alteration was proposed; the first day for polling, according to the present law, would be July 8; no alteration was proposed. But, according to the present law, the last day for nomination would be July 15; it was proposed to make July 10 the last day for nomination. The last day for polling, according to the present law, would be July 18; it was proposed that July 17 should be the last day for polling. He thought the clause had better be left as it was, and if it were desirable it could be altered on the Report.

MR. HENLEY

said, he hoped the Government would consider the period between the reception of the writ and the giving of notice of the election.

MR. W. E. FORSTER

It is the same as now.

MR. HENLEY

said, that otherwise they would be inviting people to carry on their election business by surprise. Suppose a man accepted the Chiltern Hundreds, it might be known to hardly anyone that a writ was issued. The writ might have been prepared beforehand, and it might go down the very day it was moved for; and could anyone say that three days was a fair notice, in a county that an election was to come off?

MR. W. E. FORSTER

It is not so.

MR. HENLEY

The day of nomination was the day of election, if there was no opposing candidate.

MR. W. E. FORSTER

It is the same as now.

MR. HENLEY

asked how, in a county, it was possible for parties to know who would be put up? The time was altered some years back to six days. It was then considered only fair play to all parties that six days should intervene, because this gave full opportunity of the notice appearing in all the county papers, the only way in which information could be given in counties. In six days they were sure to take in the day of the election, and it was but fair play to the electors that they should know that a vacancy had occurred, and that they were called on to exercise their franchise. It would be impossible, in counties, that three days would give the necessary information. It would be a complete job, and he was sure that the right hon. Gentleman did not want that. The right hon. Gentleman left it to the returning officer to say how many days after the receipt of the notice the nomination should take place. In fairness and consideration to the returning officer the Committee ought to fix the number of days. Fix them, if they pleased, according to the number of the electors; but let not the returning officer be exposed to the insinuation which he would be exposed to if power was given to him of determining the time that was to elapse between the receipt of the writ and the day of polling.

MR. W. E. FORSTER

explained that the right hon. Gentleman who had just spoken was under some error. The time of notice from the receipt of the writ was not altered at all, neither was the first day for nomination altered; therefore there could be no greater surprise than now. It was true that under the clause the discretion of the returning officer as to the last day would be altered; but at present he might choose any day between the 5th and 15th (if the writ was issued on the 1st); but as he would be limited to between the 5th and the 10th, it was necessary to give him some discretion between the day of nomination and the poll. It was impossible to make a hard-and-fast line between the day of nomination and the day of poll, because the preparation of the ballot papers would vary in different counties according to their circumstances.

MR. GOLDSMID

said, that the clause, in all but one respect, embodied the scheme he had himself put on the Paper; but he thought that in the point on which it differed it was for the worse—namely, that it did not allow, as he had proposed, that there should be one clear day between the nomination and the poll. He feared that, unless this was given, a rival candidate might be started at the last moment, of whom neither the candidates nor the constituency could know anything, and the result would occasion great inconvenience.

MR. SCLATER-BOOTH

said, that the periods fixed for county elections by the Act of 1868 had worked very well, and he suggested that the precedent of the Act might be followed in regard to the interval between the nomination and the poll, the shorter the interval the better.

MR. W. E. FORSTER

agreed that the shorter the interval the better, within proper limits; but he was convinced that the period he now proposed was necessary. At the same time, if hon. Gentlemen would think the point over, and would communicate with him before the Report, he should be glad as any of them could be to shorten the period. In regard to the hon. Gentleman's (Mr. Goldsmid's) suggestion, it seemed to him that if the returning officer could prepare the papers the election might well take place the day after the nomination; but in large towns that would sometimes, of course, not be possible.

MR. DISRAELI

said, that he did not exactly see why the preliminaries should require more time in the counties than in the boroughs. The different periods, therefore, that were now proposed for towns and for counties required explanation.

MR. W. E. FORSTER

reminded the right hon. Gentleman that at present there was a difference in the time allowed to elapse between the day of nomination and that of the poll in boroughs and in counties. The matter would be left to the discretion of the returning officer. In large counties the preparation of the voting papers must necessarily take some hours.

SIR JOHN GRAY

said, that the effect of the clause in Ireland would be to deprive them of the clear day that now always elapsed between the day of nomination and the poll.

MR. JAMES

said, he thought that the sooner the polling followed the nomination the better.

SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH

entirely coincided in that opinion, only he wished to see it applied to counties as well as to boroughs.

MR. M'LAREN

said, he thought the clause would be much improved by the introduction of the suggestion of the hon. Member for Rochester (Mr. Goldsmid). A clear day between the nomination and the poll would be found indispensable in most boroughs.

MR. W. E. FORSTER

again explained the precise nature of the proposals contained in the clause, and in regard to the suggestion of the hon. Member for Rochester, he pointed out that the returning officer would not be obliged to take the polling the day after the nomination. It would be discretionary on his part.

SIR HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSON

said, he thought that it had been overlooked that in counties there would be some difficulty in providing rooms fitted up for voting, unless there was full time allowed for doing so.

MR. GOLDSMID

suggested that there should be one clear day between the nomination and the day of the election, as was the case in Ireland.

MR. W. E. FORSTER

asked, why they should lengthen the time in English boroughs when the present time was found convenient?

MR. BERESFORD HOPE

said, that under the new system polling places would require more fitting up than was required under the present system.

MR. SCLATER-BOOTH

proposed to amend the clause by substituting "6th" for "9th" in section 2 of the clause, and "4" for "6" in the third section, in order to make the period between the day of nomination and that of polling as short as possible.

MR. W. E. FORSTER

said, he thought that it would not be prudent to shorten the time more than he had already done.

MR. SCLATER-BOOTH

said, that there was a special Act which shortened the time for the election of 1868, and that Act worked remarkably well.

MR. G. B. GREGORY

said, he thought the time provided in the Bill was the least that should be allowed in counties.

MR. R. N. FOWLER

pointed out that county electors might have qualifications in various counties, and therefore it would not be desirable to have too many elections upon the same day.

MR. GOLDSMID

proposed an Amendment to insert, after "Parliamentary election," "less than one nor."

Amendment negatived.

Clause ordered to be added to the Bill.

MR. W. E. FORSTER

proposed to insert after Clause 17 a clause with regard to polling-places. (Division of counties into polling districts.) (For the purposes of a Parliamentary Election every county in England shall be divided by the county authority (as hereinafter denned) of such county into polling districts, with a polling place assigned to each district, and arranged in such manner that, so far as is reasonably practicable, an elector resident in the county shall have a polling place within a distance not exceeding four miles from his residence (so, nevertheless, that a polling district need not in any case be constituted containing less than one hundred registered electors); and the county authority shall, by the same or any subsequent order, determine the polling places at which the revising barristers are to hold their courts,)—(Mr. William Edward Forster,) The right hon. Gentleman said, he hoped that this clause would carry into effect the expressed wish of the Committee.

Clause brought up, and read the first and second time.

SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH

said, he was glad the right hon. Gentleman had taken time to consider this matter; but he did not think that the clause proposed would be satisfactory. The right hon. Gentleman had adopted the distance of four miles within which every resident elector, as far as reasonably practicable, should have a polling-place. Now, he thought the meaning of these words, "as far as reasonably practicable," would be that the polling-place should only be within that distance of the large majority of the electors. Especially in the less populous districts there would be many men who had to go much more than four miles before they could vote. For that reason he was rather surprised that the right hon. Gentleman had not stated his reasons for adopting the distance of four miles instead of two miles, as he (Sir Michael Hicks-Beach) had proposed. A four mile distance had many of the faults of the present system, and few of the merits of a real multiplication of polling-places. Like all half-and-half measures it was open to objections on both sides. Many of the electors would be disinclined to walk the additional distance, while, on the other hand, the expense of the conveyance of voters to the poll, which was borne by the candidates, would only be very slightly diminished. In the Amendment which he (Sir Michael Hicks-Beach) would presently move to the clause, he had adopted the three mile distance in order to meet the wishes of the Government as far as he could, and also because there was a precedent for such a distance in the provisions of the Education Act of last year. The right hon. Gentleman might say that children of tender age could not be compared with electors; but the Committee must bear in mind that they were legislating not only for rich voters with carriages, and for young and healthy voters, but for old, poor, and feeble electors. A limit of three miles was by no means unreasonable, and he did not see what objection it was open to, especially as any single polling-place at an ordinary county election ought only to cost about £10.

MR. W. E. FORSTER

said, he would postpone his reply until the hon. Baronet's Amendment was before the Committee.

MR. SCLATER-BOOTH

said, he thought the limit adopted by the right hon. Gentleman a very illiberal one. He thought every parish ought to have a polling-place. Parish officers ought to be the persons to take the votes of the parishioners. He objected to the idea of the candidates having agents at every polling-place. The parish officers were to be trusted to discharge this duty as they were trusted at present in counties and in boroughs to place the greater portion of the electors on the register. By a proper development of parochial authority and responsibility much expense could be got rid of and arrangements much simplified.

MR. W. E. FORSTER

said, the hon. Gentleman had submitted a plan adapted to the future. When the First Lord of the Admiralty had carried his Bill for reforming local government, he might act on the suggestion which, had just been made; but the regulations the Committee had already made with regard to presiding officers were not such that the duties could now be safely intrusted to overseers. In many parts of the kingdom the parishes were small, and he could hardly suppose that under any circumstances there would be a polling-place in every parish. The hon. Member would admit that his suggestion would hardly suit our present circumstances.

MR. COLLINS

said, he hoped, at all events, that the right hon. Gentleman would consider those suggestions before he re-introduced his Dill next year. Any legislation must as far as possible be of a permanent character; and therefore he trusted that during the Recess the right hon. Gentleman would consider whether some parochial authority could not be introduced into the Bill. It was hardly worth while discussing the matter now, as they would have to discuss it at another time. Small parishes could be combined, as they were for school boards under the Education Act.

MR. EASTWICK

said, he had given Notice of an Amendment for reducing the distance from four miles to two.

MR. DIMSDALE

moved, as an Amendment, the omission of the words "so far as is reasonably practicable," which were used in reference to fixing the districts for the polling-places. The Quarter Sessions would have to make the arrangements for fixing those districts, and it would be a great evil to have party discussions at the Quarter Sessions on such a subject. The direct terms on which such arrangements were to be made should be laid down, so that the Court of Quarter Sessions might know what they were to do and what they were not to do.

MR. W. E. FORSTER

said, if the hon. Member would visit him in the autumn, they could take a walk of 20 or 30 miles across the moors, and he would then see that it would be impossible not to leave some discretion, because it would be unreasonable to provide polling-places for the sparse population.

MR. SCLATER-BOOTH

repeated that it would be most convenient to adopt the arrangement he had suggested. No man could object to go to the centre of his parish, and if he were more than four miles from it that would be his misfortune.

Amendment negatived.

SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH

moved to insert three instead of four in reference to the number of miles within which the polling-places should be brought to the residence of electors. He said the proposals of the Government were more liberal for Ireland than for England. The Returns for Irish counties showed that, in proportion to population, they would have many more polling-places than English counties were likely to have. In the case of his own county he did not think the Amendment would make much difference, because the limit of 100 electors would leave things much as they were now.

Amendment proposed, in line 6, to leave out the word "four," and insert the word "three,"—(Sir Michael Hicks-Beach.)

MR. W. E. FORSTER

said, the hon. Baronet must bear in mind the clause did not propose any limit of four miles as a minimum; it would leave it to the discretion of the county authorities to make the distance as much loss as they liked. It would be going too far to propose compulsion with reference to a less distance than four miles. There was no analogy between children going to school every day, and electors going to the poll once in three or four years. It was possible that hereafter they might find it necessary to go further; but considering the expense that was likely to be incurred by the change, and that it was to be borne by the candidates, it was going far enough to make the four-mile distance compulsory, leaving a discretion with reference to a less distance.

COLONEL BARTTELOT

said, that by putting a polling-place within reach of every voter they would save the expense of conveying voters to the poll. He believed it would be found many voters would not walk even three miles to record their votes.

MR. COLLINS

urged the right hon. Gentleman to accept the Amendment for the convenience of electors.

MR. ASSHETON CROSS

referred to suggestions he had previously offered to the Committee, one of which was that the county voter should be placed as nearly in the same position as the borough voter in regard to the facilities for going to the poll. The second suggestion he made was that the polling-places should be situate at such distances as to enable workpeople to record their votes during the dinner hour, so that they might be freed from the effects of any influence on the part of their employers. He had thought these suggestions, being consistent with the principle of the Bill, would have been adopted, and he deeply regretted that the right hon. Gentleman had not given them some consideration in this clause. He should now therefore support the Amendment.

MR. G. B. GREGORY

objected to the multiplication of polling-places, because a multiplication of expenses would follow, as election agents would probably require to have a confidential clerk, and well paid, at each polling-place. He did not think that the distance as between three miles and four miles would much affect the aged and infirm, for many persons who could walk three could, also walk four miles.

COLONEL CORBETT

said, he hoped the Amendment would be accepted. In canvassing the poorer voters they were very often told—"I voted at the last election for so-and-so, and have never been paid for my day's work." Many such voters would not walk even one mile, and the clause would disfranchise hundreds and thousands of county electors.

MR. SCLATER-BOOTH

said, the Committee ought to consider what would be the inconvenience or loss to the electors if the clause were passed. How were they to be repaid for the loss of their day's wages in walking to the poll? It was only reasonable and right that the distance of the polling-booths should be reduced as much as possible, in order to save the time and labour of the working classes.

MR. EASTWICK

wished the distance could be reduced even to one mile. If a man had to walk four miles to the poll and four back, he would at least lose three hours, which would be tantamount to a day's wages. No poor voter could afford such a sacrifice, and as for the aged and infirm such a distance was out of the question.

COLONEL WILSON-PATTEN

said, he would vote for the Amendment because he held the limit of three miles would save expense, and do away with the necessity of carrying voters to the poll, that being the greatest of all objections in county elections. Under the Education Act they would have school-houses at a distance not exceeding three miles, and he hoped that it would be made compulsory that they should be used as polling-places.

MR. W. E. FORSTER

said, the reason why the Government proposed four miles was that it being in the power of the county magistrates to make the distance much less they thought no harm could be done and that this was a fair figure. The probability, moreover, was that supposing the four mile standard was adopted a large majority would only have about a mile to walk.

MR. SCOURFIELD

said, he thought the electioneering agents would have the best of it under the proposed conditions.

MR. COLLINS

said, he thought the question was solely one affecting the convenience of voters. His object was that the House should be a fair representation of the constituencies, and this could not be the case unless the utmost facility for voting existed.

MR. PELL

pointed out that under the law as it now stood the county magistrates might make as many polling-places as they liked, and the Bill only said that the distance must in no case exceed four miles.

LORD GEORGE HAMILTON

said, he hoped the Committee would accept the Amendment, as in many counties without it voters would, to a large extent, be disfranchised. In the county he represented (Middlesex) there were at the last Election 18 polling-places to 25,000 electors, and he could state that there was no point on which the electors were so sore as that in regard to the paucity of polling-places, though the county was really a small one. He trusted the Committee would accept the Amendment.

SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH

said, he had not heard one conclusive argument for the preference of the figure four to three. In spite of existing Acts, for causes into which he did not care to go, magistrates had not provided sufficient polling-places. If the Amendment was not carried magistrates would divide the counties into districts, with the polling-places separated from each other by eight miles.

Question put, "That the word 'four' stand part of the Clause."

The Committee divided:—Ayes 159; Noes 83: Majority 76.

SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH

pointed out that in many districts with which he was acquainted the union of as many as 10 or 12 parishes would be necessary to furnish the stipulated quota of 100 electors. He proposed, accordingly, to substitute 50.

Amendment proposed, in line 7, to leave out the words "one hundred," and insert the word "fifty."—(Sir Michael Hicks-Beach.)

COLONEL BARTTELOT

believed the reduction to be absolutely necessary.

MR. W. E. FORSTER

said, the same argument applied as in the former case. The magistrates already had a discretionary power, and he did not think it wise to go further in the direction of compulsion than the Bill already went.

MR. ASSHETON CROSS

pointed out that the magistrates already possessed many discretionary powers which were not exercised—such, for instance, as the power to form highway districts and to appoint Roman Catholic chaplains.

MR. COLLINS

said, the magistrates generally declined to interfere unless applications were made from individual parishes, which were not very probable if the effect were in any way to increase expense.

LORD JOHN MANNERS

said, the Bill contained so many new matters that one must assume that the magistrates would regard any figures contained in the Bill as indicative of the wishes of the Legislature. Accordingly, it was very desirable to adopt the reduced limit of 50.

MR. W. E. FORSTER

said, that the hon. Members taking part in the discussion upon this clause were themselves active magistrates, and no doubt would exercise much influence in their respective districts in having the discretionary powers of the former Act exercised.

SIR HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSON

, thanking the right hon. Gentleman for his compliment, said, it was because hon. Members had already tried and failed that they were anxious to have these Amendments introduced into the Bill.

Question put, "That the words 'one hundred' stand part of the Clause."

The Committee divided:—Ayes 158; Noes 89: Majority 69.

Clause agreed to.

MR. W. E. FORSTER

then moved the ollowing clause:— For the purposes of a Parliamentary Election, the borough authority (as hereinafter defined) of every Parliamentary borough in England, shall take into consideration the division of such borough into polling districts, and, if they think it desirable, by order, divide such borough into polling districts, in such manner as they may think most convenient for taking the votes of the electors at a poll.

LORD GEORGE HAMILTON

asked how far the polling-places were to be distant from each other?

MR. W. E. FORSTER

said, it was almost impossible to define what the distance was to be.

MR. COLLINS

said, he thought that provision should be made for having polling-places in every ward.

MR. W. E. FORSTER

considered that it would be well to leave the matter to the discretion of the several boroughs.

Clause agreed to.

New Clause— (In England, any room in a public elementary school shall be deemed to be a room to which section thirty-seven of "The Representation of the People Act, 1867," applies, and may be used with such consent as therein mentioned for the purpose of taking the poll at a Parliamentary Election,)—(Mr. William Edward Forster,) —brought up, and read the first and second time.

SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH

said, it was possible that persons having control over a school room might raise some frivolous objection to its use, or might have some reluctance to its being used for the purpose of polling. He therefere proposed that the power should be made compulsory, not only with regard to the use of school rooms, but to any room to which the Act applied.

Amendment proposed, in line 3, after the word "with," to insert the words "or without."—(Sir Michael Hicks-Beach.)

SIR FRANCIS GOLDSMID

supported the Amendment, on the ground that it was better to save school managers from the odium of political partizanship which might be involved in exercising a discretion.

MR. W. E. FORSTER

said, he could have no objection to compulsion in respect of schools if it extended to other public rooms.

MR. J. G. TALBOT

was opposed to compulsory powers being introduced into the clause, and pointed out that many of the schools were close to churches.

MR. KINNAIRD

could see no objection to using a school room for a national purpose. Neither could he see any harm in its being near to a church. The hon. Member for Kent ought to be the last man to make such an objection, seeing that he celebrated his last election by a demonstration or celebration in a parish church.

MR. J. G. TALBOT

observed that the hon. Gentleman was hardly in Order in making such a remark.

MR. KINNAIRD

said, that he had a right to allude to the circumstance, as he was one of the hon. Gentleman's constituents. In the county of Perth, where strong religious feelings prevailed, churches even were constantly used by the people for political purposes by general consent, and there was no idea that there was any desecration of the edifices involved in doing this. On some occasions he had often himself occupied the pulpit, when engaged in a purely political duty.

MR. J. G. TALBOT

said, he did not know what they did in Perthshire; but he could assure the hon. Member that nothing of the kind took place in Kent, and he denied that his return had been celebrated in any parish church.

COLONEL WILSON-PATTEN

thought it would be a great improvement to make the clause compulsory.

MR. W. E. FORSTER

feared that the possession of a discretionary power might occasionally lead to a bitterness of feeling.

MR. COLLINS

suggested that some provision should be made for compensating the managers for any damage done to the school room.

MR. W. E. FORSTER

said, of course if the clause was compulsory such a provision must be added. If the managers had power to refuse their consent, they could make their own bargain.

MR. M'LAREN

said, he hoped the Committee would agree to the Amendment, as he intended to extend its application to corresponding schools in Scotland.

MR. W. H. SMITH

said, he would not press the Amendment which he had on the Paper; but he considered it rather an extreme measure to give a compulsory power to use schools which were not the property of the State.

SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE

recommended that some allowance should be made for the loss of time of the school caused by the use of the building for election purposes.

MR. W. E. FORSTER

said, he did not think any hardship would arise, because elections only occurred once in three or four years.

MR. J. G. TALBOT

observed that in country districts it was difficult to get the requisite number of attendances of scholars, and if school rooms were taken without the consent of the managers the Parliamentary grant would be diminished.

MR. W. E. FORSTER

said, the present arrangements for pay were based upon the assumption that there would be a considerable number of holidays in the year, and the manager would include the days during which the school was closed at an election amongst the holidays.

SIR GEORGE JENKINSON

considered it a small matter that in rural districts school rooms should be given up once in three, four, or seven years, for a great public service.

SIR HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSON

said, he thought the suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman would be impracticable, as the holidays occurred at fixed times.

MR. BIRLEY

was of opinion that if no choice was left to the manager some compensation should be given to him.

Question put, "That those words be there inserted."

The Committee divided:—Ayes 190; Noes 43: Majority 147.

MR. COLLINS

moved to limit the operation of the clause to elementary schools in receipt of public grants.

MR. W. E. FORSTER

said, the wording of the clause would require some little alteration on the Report, as it was rather brusque to say the schools should be used with or without the consent of the manager, although that was the result to be attained in effect. He undertook, at the same time, to make the clause apply to those schools which were in receipt of public money. He was ready likewise to extend the same principle to the schools in Scotland.

MR. COLLINS

said, he would leave it in the hands of the right hon. Gentleman.

SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH

moved the addition at the end of Clause D of the following proviso:— Provided always, That the returning officer of any county or borough shall be liable to make good any damage done to such room, or any expense incurred by the person or corporation having control over the same, on account of its being used for the purpose of taking the poll as aforesaid.

Amendment agreed to.

MR. BONHAM-CARTER

moved to add at the end of the clause— That the occupation of any room in an unoccupied house for taking the poll shall not render such house liable to be rated.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, ordered to be added to the Bill.

MR. PELL

then moved that the Chairman report Progress, as there were many Orders on the Business Paper, and he thought their consideration should not be delayed.

MR. GLADSTONE

said, that the object of the Government was to finish the Bill, so as to make way for the Motion of the right hon. Gentleman (Sir Charles Adderley) on Friday. He added that if the Bill were passed through Committee he would consent that no other Order should be taken.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

THE SOLICITOR - GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. DOWSE)

proposed certain provisions for the purpose of increasing the number of polling-places in Ireland.

New Clause— (In every county in Ireland when in relation to such county any order made under the provisions of this Act is in force, every place in which petty sessions are at the time of the passing of this Act held shall be a place for taking the poll at contested elections of Members to serve in Parliament for such county, and every such place is in this Act referred to as "a polling place. The chairman of quarter sessions and the justices of the peace having jurisdiction in any county or riding in Ireland, assembled at any general or quarter sessions which may be held before the first day of February next after the passing of this Act, shall make an order in relation to every polling place within such county or riding, uniting such and so many townlands, parts of townlands, places, and areas, as they may think fit to constitute the polling district for such polling place. A copy of every such order shall forthwith be sent by the clerk of the peace for such county or riding to the clerk of the Privy Council in Ireland, who thereupon shall take such steps as may be necessary for submitting the same for confirmation by the Lord Lieutenant and Privy Council in Ireland, in the manner by this Act provided, and such order shall not be of any validity until the same has been so confirmed. Notice of the intended submission of any such order shall be given at least one month before the day fixed for such confirmation by the clerk of the said Privy Council by the publication of such notice and order in some newspaper circulating within such county or riding to which such order has reference. It shall be lawful for the Lord Lieutenant and Privy Council, on the day fixed for the intended confirmation of any such order, to confirm the same as it stands, or with such variation, alteration, or modification as may seem fit: Provided always, That where any person is dissatisfied with any such order it shall be lawful for such person, within ten days after the publication of the notice of the intended submission for confirmation of such order, to appeal against the same, and such appeal shall be in writing, stating the grounds thereof, and shall be signed by such person, and shall within such time be lodged with the clerk of the Privy Council; and it shall be lawful for the Lord Lieutenant and Privy Council, previous to the confirmation of any such order, to hear and determine such appeal against the same, and to make such order as to the costs of such appeal as may seem meet. When any such order has been confirmed as aforesaid, the clerk of the said Privy Council shall transmit a copy of the same to the clerk of the peace of the county or riding to which the same relates, and shall cause the same to be published once in the Dublin Gazette, and once in the newspaper in which the notice of intended confirmation was published. Every such order shall, so far as is required for the purpose of framing the lists of voters, take effect on the first day of June next after the order is confirmed, and so far as it relates to the register of voters and to taking the poll, shall take effect on the first day of January next following such first day of June: Provided always, That at any Election of a Member or Members to serve in Parliament for any county to which any such order relates held after the making of any such order, and before the register of voters to be formed subsequently to the date of the making of such order shall be in force, the poll shall be taken as if no such order had been made. The provisions of the Act passed in the Session of Parliament held in the twenty-seventh and twenty-eighth years of the reign of Her present Majesty, chapter twenty-two, in relation to the registration of voters and the revision of the list of voters, when any declaration or order such as is mentioned in the said Act has been made, shall extend and apply to every case in which any order has been made under the authority of this section in like manner as if such sections were herein re-enacted, and the orders to which the same refer or apply were orders made under the authority of this section. All precepts, notices, and forms relating to the registration of voters shall be framed and expressed in such manner and form as may be necessary for the carrying the provisions of this Act into effect. When the chairman of quarter sessions and justices of the peace having jurisdiction in any county or riding in Ireland, assembled at any such general or quarter sessions as aforesaid, or at any subsequent quarter sessions, are of opinion that for the purpose of affording further facilities for polling at contested Elections, there should be polling places in addition to the places where petty sessions are held at the time of the passing of this Act, they may, by an order to be made at the same quarter sessions or at any subsequent quarter sessions, in like manner and subject to the same provisions as are in this section contained in relation to orders to be made under the authority of the same, appoint such other places to be polling places as they shall think fit, and shall constitute polling districts for such polling places. No Election shall be questioned by reason of any polling district not having been constituted in conformity with the provisions of this Act, or by reason of any informality relative to any polling district. When any day fixed for taking the poll at any Election is the day fixed for the holding of the petty sessions court at any polling place, the court shall stand ipso facto adjourned till the next day, which shall in that case be the legal day for holding said court, and, if that day be a Sunday or legal holiday, till the next day,)—(Mr. Solicitor General for Ireland,) —brought up, and read the first and second time.

LORD CLAUD HAMILTON

approved these provisions upon the whole, and suggested that no power to select school houses for the purpose of taking the poll should be given, for the question of allowing school rooms to be used for that purpose was a much more difficult one in Ireland than in England.

THE SOLICITOR GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. DOWSE)

said, that it was provided that every petty sessional court-house should be a polling place, and that the justices at the Court of Quarter Sessions might order other polling-places. On the Report, if the Committee so wished, he would add words to prevent schools from being used as polling-places.

MR. M'CARTHY DOWNING

said, he hoped that the power of ordering additional polling-places would be left to the chairman of Quarter Sessions, and that the words "and that justices of the peace" would be omitted.

Amendment proposed, In line 13, after the words "polling place," to insert the words "and arranged in such manner that, so far as is reasonably practicable, an elector resident in the county shall have a polling place within a distance not exceeding four miles from his residence (so, nevertheless, that a polling district need not in any case be constituted containing less than one hundred registered electors)."—(Mr. Bruen.)

THE SOLICITOR GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. DOWSE)

opposed the Amendment as unnecessary.

Question put, "That those words be there inserted."

The Committee divided:—Ayes 69; Noes 109: Majority 40.

MR. J. LOWTHER

proposed, after sub-section 2, to add— In Ireland any room in a school aided by Government grants may be used by the returning officer for the purpose of taking the poll at Parliamentary elections.

THE SOLICITOR GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. DOWSE)

said, convent schools in Ireland received Government grants, and the Amendment would, include them; but he could not consent to such schools being used for the purpose of polling places. He had no objection to insert a power to justices of the peace to select such school-houses as they should think proper for the purposes of polling.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

THE SOLICITOR GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. DOWSE)

proposed to insert the words "Provided that any suitable school receiving the Government grant may be adopted," at the end of sub-section 9.

MR. J. LOWTHER

was willing to accept the proposal of the hon. and learned Gentleman in lieu of his own.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, added to the Bill.

MAJOR WALKER (for Mr. GORDON)

moved the insertion of the following new clauses:— (Polling places in Scotland.) With respect to the division of counties in Scotland into polling districts, the following provisions shall have effect:—

1. "1. Each sheriff shall, with the consent of Her Majesty's Advocate for Scotland for the time being, from time to time, hereafter increase or otherwise alter the number, situation, or arrangement of the existing places or districts in his county, in such manner that, so far as is reasonably practicable, an elector resident in the county shall have a polling place within a distance not exceeding three miles from his residence (so, nevertheless, that a polling district need not in any case be constituted containing less than fifty registered electors.)
2. "2. Subject to the provisions of sub-section one hereof, the provisions of the second and third sections of the Act of the sixteenth and seventeenth years of the reign of Her present Majesty, chapter twenty-eight, shall remain in full force and effect."

In many counties in Scotland the electors had to travel 10, 15, and sometimes even 20 miles, to get to the polling-places, and therefore it was absolutely necessary that some such provision as that which he moved should be embodied in the Bill.

THE LORD ADVOCATE

opposed the clause. Under the existing law, the sheriff was empowered to multiply the number of polling-places and make other necessary arrangements; but the electors had the power of dissenting from his arrangements, or he might be compelled to act on a petition being presented by not fewer than ten of their number. He believed that the working of the law had been satisfactory.

SIR JOHN HAY

said, that in the county with which he was connected there were only two polling-places, which were 32 miles apart. One of them was seven miles from the railway. He was at a loss to understand why the electors had not petitioned the sheriff for better arrangements. But there was at present no law compelling the sheriff to provide adequate polling-places, and he was unable to see why the Lord Advocate did not enforce the same arrangements for Scotland as had proved satisfactory in the other parts of the United Kingdom.

LORD GARLIES

expressed astonishment at the statement of the right hon. and learned Lord Advocate. The Lord Advocate had stated that it was open to the electors to make application to the sheriff to provide a greater number of polling-places. He knew that before the last election there was a special application made to the sheriff for Wigtonshire for more polling-places, and that application was treated with contempt. In his county the voters had to come as far as 25 miles to the poll, and as in England the electors were to have polling-places within four miles, he thought the claims of his countrymen to be placed, in a similar position should be allowed.

MR. MILLER

stated that his experience was quite the reverse of that stated by the noble Lord. At the last election in one of the counties with which he was connected, an application was made to the sheriff for additional polling-places, and there was no difficulty in the matter at all. But supposing that this clause were inserted in the Bill, the voters might still have to go as many miles to the poll, and in such counties as Aberdeenshire or Argyleshire they might have to go 30 or 35 miles. He thought that as far as polling-places were concerned, the electors of Scotland were in a very good position.

MR. SCLATER-BOOTH

said, it appeared that in Scotland there were sheriffs and sheriffs, and that some would give facilities which the others withhold. He wished to get rid of the anomaly, and that it would be a monstrous thing if the country should refuse to give to Scotland what they had already insisted upon for England.

THE LORD ADVOCATE

said, he was not aware of the occasion of the surprise of his noble Friend the Member for Wigtonshire (Lord Garlies), because the whole of his (the Lord Advocate's) statement referred to the statute law of the land, and he would undertake to say that what he said was strictly correct. As to the noble Lord's statement that the electors of the county of Wigtonshire had petitioned the sheriff, and that the sheriff had treated that petition with silent contempt, he ventured to say, without knowing anything of the particular circumstances, but knowing the sheriffs of Scotland, that the statement must be inaccurate. There was certainly no sheriff in Scotland who would dare to treat a petition presented to him under the Act of Parliament with silent contempt. If he were to do so he would violate the statute, and would in all probability be removed from his office. There were not sheriffs and sheriffs in this matter. Every sheriff had a statutory form to guide him, and if such a petition was presented to him, he must proceed in the manner prescribed in the Act.

MR. CAMPBELL

said, he thought the Scotch county voters at present were in a much better position than the county voters in England, because every ten electors could petition the sheriff and get polling-places arranged to their satisfaction, subject to appeal to the Lord Advocate.

MAJOR WALKER

said, that it had been overlooked by all his hon. Friends that while it was true that any ten electors could present a petition calling on the sheriff to appoint additional polling-places, it was equally true that any other ten electors could present a petition against their being given; and the result was that the decision was left to the judgment or caprice of the sheriff. The sheriffs were no doubt very estimable and excellent men; but probably English Members were not aware of the exact position which the sheriff occupied in Scotland, for it was very different from the position of a sheriff in England. A sheriff in Scotland was a stipendiary magistrate appointed by the Lord Advocate. Therefore, the appeal from the sheriff to the Lord Advocate was an appeal from the Lord Advocate's nominee to himself.

MR. SCLATER-BOOTH

said, as the opposition to the clause seemed to have taken everybody by surprise, and could only have a political motive, it would be better to report Progress until tomorrow.

After some further discussion, Motion to report Progress withdrawn.

Clause agreed to, and added to the Bill.

The Clerk at the Table informed the House, That Mr. Speaker was unable to return to the Chair during the present sitting of the House.

Whereupon Mr. Dodson, the Chairman of Ways and Means, took the Chair as Deputy Speaker, pursuant to the Standing Order.

Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow, at Two of the clock.

Notice taken, that 40 Members were not present; House counted, and 40 Members not being present,

House adjourned at Three o'clock.