HC Deb 23 June 1870 vol 202 cc852-6

Order for Committee read.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."—(Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer.)

MR. P. A. TAYLOR

condemned the measure as another Bill to be added to the already long list of laws for the preservation of game. In his opinion this gun tax, apart from its being a new game law, had every conceivable vice that a tax could possibly possess, and would operate most unequally and unjustly. It was an attempt to bring our laws and customs into harmony with those of the most despotic of Continental Governments—it was an attempt to disarm the people. He moved that the House go into Committee on the Bill on this day three months.

Amendment proposed, To leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "this House will, upon this day three months, resolve itself into the said Committee,"—(Mr. Taylor,) —instead thereof.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said, he hardly thought it was necessary to discuss the matter at this time, and he therefore would not waste the time of the House by any observations upon it.

MR. GREENE

protested against the view of the Bill taken by the hon. Member for Leicester, that it was a measure for the preservation of game.

MR. NEWDEGATE

rejoiced that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had consented to retain the duty on game licences, because that was a tax upon luxury, and therefore a most proper tax; but a gun tax might be a hardship on those who kept fire-arms for the protection of their premises. If the hon. Member for Leicester had based his Motion on trade grounds he would have supported it.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."

The House divided:—Ayes 262; Noes 41: Majority 221.

Main Question, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair," put, and agreed to.

Bill considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

Clauses 1 and 2 agreed to.

Clause 3 (Duty on licence to use a gun).

MR. MUNTZ moved, in lines 22 and 23, to leave out the words "or carry," which, as the clause stood, would render liable to a penalty of £10 any person who might be found carrying a gun, even across the street, or under any circumstances, however trivial.

MR. STANSFELD

said, the hon. Member had omitted to observe the exemptions in the Bill, which applied in one clause to persons carrying guns that belonged to others who were licensed. By another clause a person would not be liable for carrying a gun unless he had a primâ facie intention to use it.

MR. SCLATER-BOOTH

said, there was another grievance which had been pointed out to him by a London gun-maker—namely, that workmen going with guns to prove them at a range might be liable under this Bill. He had prepared a clause to meet such cases.

MR. MUNTZ

said, he would withdraw his Amendment.

MR. HENLEY

observed, that the wording of the clause ought to be quite definite; for, unless it were, a servant carrying a gun for the use of his master, or a gunmaker carrying one to a purchaser, might be held liable to a penalty.

MR. NEWDEGATE

said, he thought everybody knew what was meant by "carrying" arms. The object of the Chancellor of the Exchequer was to pass an Arms Act for this country; but he did not know what the people of England had done to deserve a penal measure. He objected to the Bill on account of its interference with trade.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

explained that the language of the clause was only intended to prevent arms being carried with the intention of using then. It was necessary in Excise Acts to make the language rather wide, or else the onus might be thrown upon the Excise of proving the intention with which the arms were being carried.

SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE

said, he thought that care should be taken that the words of the clause did not go beyond the intention of the House upon the subject.

MR. STANSFELD

said, that the Government would take the subject into consideration, and would bring up a new clause upon the Report.

MR. HENLEY

asked, whether a person sent with a gun for repairs was to be liable to the tax?

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

No.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

MR. MUNTZ moved, in line 23, to leave out "one pound," and insert "ten shillings." He regarded the imposition of the tax as a slur upon the character of Englishmen. In any case, however, the smaller sum would meet the intentions of the Government.

Amendment proposed, to leave out the words "one pound," in order to insert the words "ten shillings."—(Mr. Muntz.)

MR. BASS

regretted that, owing to the violence of a certain number of persons from Ireland, the Government had felt themselves under the necessity of taking this method of obtaining a register of those possessing arms. He thought, however, a tax of 10s. would answer all the purpose.

After further discussion,

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said, that they had imposed a uniform tax of £1 on the ground, of the repeal of the game certificate. In accordance, however, with the wish of the Committee, they had determined to retain the game tax. Under those circumstances, he gathered that the Committee desired that the sum of £1 should not be retained. He would not, therefore, give the Committee the trouble of dividing, but would accept, as a compromise, the proposal to adopt the sum of 10s.

Question, "That the words 'one pound' stand part of the Clause," put, and negatived.

Question put, "That the words 'ten shillings' be there inserted."

The Committee divided:—Ayes 163; Noes 106: Majority 57.

SIR HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSON moved to add to the end of the clause these words, "five shillings for each and every chamber or barrel of such gun." The hon. Member said, his object was to put an end to the practice of carrying revolvers, which was growing among the working population in the Northern counties.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER,

said, he was sorry he could not accede to the Amendment, which was well meant. If there must be any additional charge, it ought to begin with every barrel or chamber above one.

MAJOR WALKER

said, he thought a distinction should be made between double-barrelled guns used in sport and revolvers, which were often used for purposes of wanton mischief.

MR. RYLANDS

said, he thought further time ought to be allowed for the consideration of the question, and moved that the Chairman be ordered to report Progress.

MR. ASSHETON CROSS

called attention to the fact that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in introducing this Bill, stated that it would have the effect of putting an end to the carrying of revolvers.

MR. RYLANDS

said, he would withdraw his Motion.

Amendment negatived.

Clause agreed to.

Clauses 4 to 6, inclusive, agreed to.

Clause 7 (Penalty for using or carrying a gun without licence).

MR. PELL

(in the absence of Mr. C. S. READ) moved, in page 2, line 21, after "curtilage thereof" to insert the words "or upon lands in the occupation of the owner of the gun," with the object of enabling owners of guns to use them upon their own land.

Amendment proposed, in page 2, line 21, after the word "thereof," to insert the words "or upon lands in the occupation of the owner of the gun."—(Mr. Clare Head.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said, the effect of these words would be to dispense with the tax in cases where persons were fortunate enough to occupy land, and impose it on those who were not.

MR. NEWDEGATE

said, he thought the Bill a most arbitrary police measure for interfering with the freedom of Englishmen without excuse.

MR. COWEN moved that the Chairman now report Progress, observing that they had had quite enough of this bad Bill already.

MR. HENLEY

asked whether the exemption ought not to be extended to vessels, as scarcely a vessel ever left port without carrying muskets or other firearms?

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said, he had often heard of a man being called a "chosen vessel," but had never heard of a vessel being deemed a man. The tax applied only to persons carrying fire-arms; but the point, however, should be considered.

Motion made, and Question put, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."—(Mr. Cowen.)

The Committee divided:—Ayes 34; Noes 166: Majority 132.

Question put, "That those words be there inserted."

The Committee divided:—Ayes 112; Noes 90: Majority 22.

MR. RUSSELL GURNEY moved an Amendment to exempt Volunteers "when engaged in target practice."

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said, that after the recent vote he should now move that Progress be reported, though he was not in a position to say that the Bill would not again come under the consideration of the House.

Committee report Progress; to sit again upon Monday next.