SUPPLY. (Hansard, 5 March 1869)

§ MR. DILLWYN
asked for some explanation of this Vote.

§ MR. AYRTON
said, that this Vote and the one which would be next proposed were required for the purpose of closing past accounts; and pointed to a note appended to the Estimate in the hands of hon. Members as explanatory of the arrears of charges, which it was meant to wipe away. The mode in which the Estimates were now dealt with was rather different from what it had been in former years. Some years ago the Supplies for the Civil Service were granted merely for the service of the year, and any excess in those Supplies remained with the heads of Departments for future expenditure in those Departments. Now, however, the money was not voted for the service, but for the particular amount that would come in course of payment during the financial year in each Department. In consequence of the adoption of the now system a final adjustment of balances had had to be made. An Act had been passed—the Exchequer and Audit Act, which was rather a complicated measure, regulating the precise manner in which Votes were to be accounted for by all the officers of the Crown who were accountants, and balance sheets had to be prepared. For that purpose it became necessary to ascertain the exact balance in the hands of every officer engaged in watching over; the expenditure of the public money at the end of the financial year in March, 1868. In order to arrive at that the accounts, for several years past, had to be carefully examined, and many of these accounts were found to result in an excess over the amount available for the public expenditure; while others, on the contrary, resulted in a balance in favour of the Exchequer. The Commissioners of Audit, however, and the gentlemen to whom the investigation of these balances had been specially referred, had arrived at the conclusion that the excess of expenditure over the amounts voted in the different Departments would be covered by the two Votes now laid upon the table. It was necessary to take these 771 Votes for the purpose of setting the accounts right; but he was happy to add that the number of accounts in which the balance in favour of the Exchequer exceeded the expenditure were by far the more favourable class. As far as the accounts had been yet adjusted the aggregate balance in favour of the Exchequer amounted to £844,000, being about £440,000 in excess of the total of balances on the unfavourable side.

§ MR. DILLWYN
said, the explanation just given by the Secretary to the Treasury was much clearer than the footnote appended to the Estimate. He thought, however, that to vote this money as if it were actually needed, when there was more than enough in hand, was rather a bungling way of settling the accounts. It would be much better to have an adjustment of the rival balances, and treat this transaction as an ordinary matter of account.

§ MR. AYRTON
said, an hon. Member asked why the Government paid the light dues for the City of Dublin Steam Packet Company, while they would pay them for no other packet company in the kingdom? It was impossible to deal with the balances in the manner suggested by the hon. Member for Swansea, inasmuch as the Estimates were framed with the object of showing every item expended on the national account, without reference to receipts. Every effort was being made by the Treasury to keep the expenditure as closely as possible to the Votes granted by the House. Other Questions he thought might more properly be reserved until the Estimates for the present year were brought forward.

§ MR. ALDERMAN LUSK
said, that St. James's Palace during the last four years had cost £40,000 in repairs, yet here was another item of £7,704 outstanding for Royal Palaces, which were explained to mean Windsor Castle, Kensington, and St. James's Palaces. How was this? There was an item of £18,000 in the Supplementary Estimates for printing and stationery, yet here was a further item of £8,468 of excess on the same 772 head. There was also an excess of more than £18,000 in the Law Courts of Ireland for pensions and retiring allowances. He could not understand why there should be an item of £2,690 for Nonconforming and other ministers in Ireland unpaid. These were not men who could have got on without their salaries, and the amount must have been voted in the proper year. Then there was an item of "miscellaneous expenses from civil contingencies" of £5,053, which was explained to arise from the item for robes, collars, and badges of the various orders of knighthood, though the sum voted last Session for these things was thousands in excess of previous years. The result at which he had arrived was, that it was impossible for anybody to understand how these accounts were managed.

§ MR. AYRTON
said, that these were not monies that were being voted for future payment in a Supplementary Estimate, but an adjustment of accounts for past payments. The item for Royal Palaces referred to unforeseen expenditure incurred before the end of March, 1868. It related to money actually spent, and had no bearing on the Vote of last year. The Vote for Printing and Stationery was also required to adjust the expenditure under the new Parliamentary mode of keeping the accounts. As the new system was not at first properly carried out, it happened sometimes that there was not in law any money applicable to the payment of any deficiency. When these Votes were adjusted it would be impossible for the same thing to occur again. In regard to the Vote for New Robes and Orders it was placed in the Estimates of a subsequent year, though the payment ought to have been a charge upon the Estimates for the year ending March, 1868. The Committee should clearly understand that they were now engaged in an adjustment of accounts, and were not really voting any public money.

§ MR. DILLWYN
said, he was afraid that under these circumstances any reduction in the Votes would be a Motion to pay so many shillings in the pound.

§ MR. AYRTON
said, that they would now start with a clear account for all these heads of expenditure, and what had before occurred would not occur again.

§ MR. MUNTZ
said, he was afraid that money had been spent first, and was to be voted afterwards; at least such appeared to have been the practice under the late Government.