HC Deb 22 June 1869 vol 197 cc414-21

[Progress. 18th June.]

Bill considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

Postponed Clause 130 (Compensation to holders of abolished offices). Amendment proposed, in page 46, line 1, to leave out the word "Where:"—(Mr. Ayrton:)— Question proposed, "That the word 'Where' stand part of the Clause."

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL

said, he would state, in a few words, the course proposed to be taken by Her Majesty's Government. He understood that a very strong opinion had been expressed by many of his hon. Friends that it would be somewhat invidious to place the Commissioners in a different category from that of the Registrars. He would accordingly propose to strike out Clause 130, and to deal with all entitled to compensation in Clause 131. In that way the Commissioners, the registrars, and all who held office during good behaviour, would be dealt with alike. A wish was also expressed by several hon. Members that there should be a power given to the Lord Chancellor —and he was sure that the Committee would feel that the Lord Chancellor might be safely trusted—in certain special cases to award to the Commissioners or registrars the full amount of their salaries where he might think that justice required it. A provision had, therefore been introduced to that effect. Where any claims to compensation beyond the ordinary amount of two-thirds arose those claims would come before the Lord Chancellor, who, with the consent of the Treasury, would be empowered to deal with them, and award the compensation which he might think just. He begged to move that Clause 130 be struck out.

Clause struck out.

Clause 131 (Compensation to clerks).

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL

moved in line 12, after "office," to insert "or employment," which he believed would meet the views of the Committee.

Amendment agreed to.

MR. SERJEANT SIMON

proposed after the word "abolished" to insert "or discontinued," with the view of compensating short-hand writers who had given their whole time to taking notes of the evidence.

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL

said, that the word "employment" which had been introduced in the clause would embrace all who had any title to compensation. He must therefore oppose the Amendment.

MR. G. GREGORY

said, he thought the Government had gone quite far enough.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

MR. MORLEY

asked what security they had in the case of future employments against this claim of freehold?

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said, the matter would require legislation, and he had it in hand.

MR. MORLEY

said, he was glad to hear it.

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL moved in line 18, after "service," to insert— Provided, That when any such person held his office during good behaviour, or during good behaviour subject only to removal by the Lord Chancellor by order, for some sufficient reason to be stated in such order, the Lord Chancellor may, with the approval of the Commissioners of the Treasury, award under special circumstances an amount equal to the salary of any such person; and in every other case the sum awarded shall not be less than two-thirds of the salary of such person.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL

moved a new clause, embodying the regulations under which the creditors of a debtor unable to pay his debts may, without any proceedings in bankruptcy, by an extraordinary resolution, resolve that a composition shall be accepted in satisfaction of the debts due to them from the debtor.

Clause ordered to be added to the Bill.

MR. G. GREGORY

proposed a clause providing that every solicitor of the Court of Chancery shall be, and may practise as a solicitor of, and in the Court of Bankruptcy, and in matters before the Judges, Commissioners, or Registrars, in Court or in Chambers, may appear and be heard without being required to employ counsel. His object was to put the solicitors in the London district on the same footing as solicitors in the country in the respect of bankruptcy practice. He submitted this proposal with no wish to make any invidious reference to the other branch of the profession; but there was a great deal of rough - and - ready practice in bankruptcy, and he thought it would be admitted that the business devolving on solicitors there had hitherto been satisfactorily discharged by them.

MR. NORWOOD

said, that barristers should not have priority of audience in bankruptcy.

MR. HINDE PALMER

thought that solicitors should be allowed to continue to practice as they had hitherto done in the Court of Bankruptcy, though he thought that the clause was hardly necessary for that purpose.

MR. WEST

thought that the phrase in the clause should be "solicitors and attorneys."

MR. JESSEL

said, that so long as we had a separate set of practitioners for advocates the privileges of these advocates should be maintained; but, as the other branch of the profession had for many years had the privilege of practising in bankruptcy, he would ask the Attorney General to agree to the clause, especially as it would tend to save expense. The clause, however, would want some amendment, for otherwise it would give solicitors the right of appearing in the Court of Appeal.

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL

said, he doubted whether the clause was necessary; but, as it might be, perhaps, a matter of some doubt, it was desirable that the law should be clear. He quite agreed that it was for the public benefit that solicitors should practice in the Court of Bankruptcy. He would therefore accept the clause, but proposed to make a slight alteration, and that it should run—"Every attorney and solicitor of the Superior Courts."

Clause, as amended, ordered to be added to the Bill.

MR. G. GREGORY

moved the insertion of a new clause (Fees and expenses of sheriff)— Where the trader is adjudged a bankrupt after his goods have been taken in execution by the sheriff, but before the sale thereof, the fees and expenses of the sheriff consequent on such seizure, including therein mileage, levy fee, and possession money, shall be paid by the trustee out of the property taken in execution, or the proceeds thereof. In such cases at present the sheriff was compelled to make a return of nulla bona, and in consequence lost his costs.

Clause (Pees and expenses of sheriff,) —(Mr. George Gregory,)—brought up, and read the first time.

MR. JESSEL

opposed the clause on the ground that it dealt with too large a question—the reform of the law of sheriff. The person to pay the sheriff was the execution creditor, because he set him in motion, and he paid nothing if the sheriff got nothing from the debtor. He could understand a proposition to make the execution creditor pay in such a case as the hon. Member contemplated, but the hon. Member wanted to make another person pay. If the law of the sheriff's officer was altered, he would recommend that he be made an officer of the court and paid a salary; but he deprecated any Amendment of that law in a Bankruptcy Bill.

MR. M. CHAMBERS

observed that the sheriff was bound to act by order of the Court, to take possession of the goods, and to advertise their sale; and it would be unfair that he should be put to that expense without being recouped.

MR. G. GREGORY

said, that it was really only carrying out a principle of the general law that a sheriff should be paid his expenses.

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL

said, he did not see sufficient reason for the proposed change in the law. The effect of it would be that the sheriff, or rather the under sheriff, would receive certain fees out of the bankrupt's estate which he did not receive now. That would be a premium to execution creditors to issue executions when they ought not. He was not prepared to alter the law in the direction of paying sheriff's fees out of the bankrupt's estate.

MR. BARROW

supported the clause. The sheriff was acting in obedience to an order from a Superior Court, and it was only right that he should be indemnified for the expenses incurred in the execution of that order.

Motion made, and Question put, ''That the Clause be now read a second time."

The Committee divided: — Ayes 60; Noes 141: Majority 81.

MR. RATHBONE moved, after Clause 125, to insert the following clause:— (Office of justice of the peace or town councillor vacated by bankruptcy.) Any person who, being a justice of the peace or town councillor is adjudged bankrupt, or has his affairs liquidated by arrangement, or compounds with his creditors, or makes an assignment to trustees for his creditors, shall, from the date of the order of adjudication, or of the commencement of the liquidation, or of the deed of composition, be and remain incapable of acting as a justice or town councillor until he has been re-appointed or re-elected, as the case may be; and if he so acts before such re-appointment or reelection, shall, for every occasion on which he so acts, incur a penalty not exceeding one hundred pounds.

MR. HINDE PALMER

objected to the clause as not possible to be adopted in its present shape.

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL

said, that under all circumstances, he could not accept the clause.

Clause negatived.

MR. HIBBERT

proposed a new clause to provide that County Court Judges should receive an increased salary in case they had conferred upon them jurisdiction in Admiralty or Bankruptcy under "the County Courts Admiralty Jurisdiction Act, 1868."

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL

said, he was by no means sure that this Bill would throw extra work upon those Judges. The question ought to be left until it were seen whether they had to perform extra duties or not.

MR. HIBBERT

contended that the duties of the Judges would be increased by the provisions of this Bill.

MR. MORLEY

said, he hoped the Government would not consent to the clause. It would be time enough to increase the salaries of the Judges of the County Courts when they ascertained that this Bill would increase their duties.

Clause withdrawn.

MR. HIBBERT

proposed a new clause to regulate the retiring pensions of Judges of County Courts.

Clause negatived.

MR. HIBBERT

then moved a clause to repeal the 11th, 12th, and 13th sections of 29 & 30 Vict. c. 14. Those clauses enacted that in the event of a vacancy occurring in the office of high bailiff in any County Court, if the registrar of such Court were willing to perform the duties of that office, no successor to such high bailiff should be appointed unless the Lord Chancellor should otherwise determine. Most of the County Court Judges had remarked that this change, which was hastily made, was by no means a desirable one; and the result of it had been that in many large towns the registrars had undertaken the duties of high bailiff, whereas in small places the two offices had been generally retained, because the office of bailiff was not sufficiently remunerative to induce the registrar to accept it.

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL

said, that his hon. Friend's proposition was irrelevant to the present Bill, and, besides it would be very imprudent to resuscitate those officials who had been got rid of with so much trouble. The clauses referred to in the Amendment had been enacted after the fullest consideration.

Clause negatived.

MR. NORWOOD

(in the absence of the hon. Gentleman Mr. Whitwell) proposed the insertion in the first Schedule, line 6, after "dyers," of the word "farmers" contending that there was no good reason why farmers and graziers should not come under the head of traders.

Schedule I.

Amendment proposed, in page 47, line 6, after the word "dyers," to insert the word "farmers."—(Mr. Whitwell.)

MR. M'MAHON

contended that farmers and graziers were not traders, but producers—they never had been treated in any other capacity, and he hoped the Attorney General would not consent to the Amendment.

MR. MORLEY

said, the object of the exemption was to exempt non-traders from the penal consequences of the law, and he saw no reason why the farmers should be exempted.

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL

said, there could be no doubt that in one sense farmers were traders; but they had never been treated as such, and he saw no reason to alter the old and settled principles of law. There was the less reason for this, as everybody could now be made a bankrupt whether he was trader or non-trader.

MR. ANDERSON

said, notwithstanding the arguments of the hon. and learned Gentleman, he must urge his hon. Friend to persevere with his Amendment. Farm- ers were traders in every sense of the word—they traded in manures and seeds, and produced a marketable article. He hoped his hon. Friend would persevere with his Amendment.

Question put, "That the word 'farmers' be there inserted."

The Committee divided: — Ayes 58; Noes 152: Majority 94.

Schedules and Preamble agreed to.

On Question, That the Bill be reported,

MR. NORWOOD

suggested that, as the Bill had undergone so much amendment, it should be re-printed, and that the Report should not be brought up for a week.

MR. G. B. GREGORY

concurred in this suggestion.

COLONEL BARTTELOT

said, he had intended to bring the case of the Commissioners and Registrars before the Committee; but when he rose for that purpose he was told by the Attorney General that that was not the occasion. He afterwards found that that was the occasion, and that he had lost his opportunity. These gentlemen had been appointed under an Act of Parliament, under which they had a freehold office for life.

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL

said, he thought the hon. Gentleman would find that he was right in stating that the matter in question did not rise on the clause which they were discussing when the hon. Member rose, but on Clause 131 and the two following clauses. He thought that the Commissioners and registrars had had ample compensation awarded them. With regard to the suggestion made by the hon. Gentleman behind him (Mr. Norwood), he had to acknowledge his services and co-operation in passing the Bill, and had no doubt he was sincere in his desire that the Bill should become law this Session; but his desire to postpone the Bill for a week was hardly consistent with that desire. They were now arrived at the end of June, and there were many other measures of great importance before the other House. Then, though there had been a great many Amendments made in the Bill, the substantive principle of the Bill had not been altered. The Bill would be printed to-morrow, and he trusted that the House would not think it unreasonable if he proposed that the Report be brought up on Friday.

Motion agreed to.

House resumed.

Bill reported; as amended, to be considered upon Friday, at Two of the clock, and to be printed. [Bill 169.]