HC Deb 30 July 1869 vol 198 cc997-1003

SUPPLY considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

(1.) £1,008,343, Customs.

(2.) £1,604,616, Inland Revenue.

(3.) £2,362,841, Post Office.

MR. BENTINCK

said, he rose to call attention to the postal arrangements between England and Italy. The first point was that no morning mails were despatched from Paris to Italy; so that it made no difference whether letters to Italy were despatched to Paris by the night or morning mails. This was a matter of the greatest possible inconvenience to those engaged in commercial pursuits. He had never seen any good reason why the French did not despatch a morning mail. A morning mail was despatched to Italy by way of Marseilles, but not by way of Toulon or the Mont Cenis route. Then there was the delay which seemed to be imposed in mere wantonness by the French Government on the mails to Italy. The route from Paris to Italy, whether by Marseilles or Savoy, was the same till they arrived at Macon, but the mail from Paris to Marseilles ran the distance to Macon in eight hours, while the mails to Toulon and to Mont Cenis took nine hours and twenty minutes. On leaving Macon matters became materially worse. Before the Victor Emmanuel Railway fell into the hands of the Paris, Lyons, and Mediterranean Company, express trains ran between Culoz and St. Michel, but now the Italian mails and passengers were carried by slow trains—by very slow ones, indeed, as anyone would testify who had travelled by that line of late years. So that between Paris and St. Michel there was a completely unnecessary loss of two hours and thirty minutes, of which the only conceivable object was to discourage travelling by the Mont Cenis route and to induce as many travellers as possible to prefer that by Marseilles and Nice. As he said before, the Marseilles trains run from Paris to Macon in eight hours, while the trains carrying the mails for Italy took nine hours and twenty minutes. From Macon to St. Michel they took seven hours and twenty minutes, whereas at so low a speed as twenty-five miles an hour, including stoppages, the journey would be performed in six hours. Thus, one hour and twenty minutes was lost between Paris and Macon, and one hour and ten minutes between Macon and St. Michel, making two hours and thirty minutes at least wasted between Paris and St. Michel. The Italian mail train now left Paris at 8.40 p.m. There was probably no reason why it should not leave at 8 p.m. as it formerly did. If the Mediterranean Company could be induced to put on a fair rate of speed, which it would be perfectly easy for them to do, the mail might perform the journey from Paris to Turin in twenty-two hours, and from Paris to Florence in 34⅛ hours. It seemed impossible to imagine a valid reason why this service between Paris and Florence should not at the present time be thus performed, were that the good pleasure of the French Government and of the Mediterranean Company. To assist comparison and appreciation he would give the different speeds at which the mail from London to Florence travelled over the different sections of the journey. London to Dover 88 miles, at 44 miles an hour; Dover to Calais, steamer, 21 miles, at 12 miles an hour; Calais to Paris, 184 miles, at 33½ miles an hour; Paris to Macon, 273 miles, at 29¼ miles an hour; Macon to St. Michel, 147 miles at 20 miles an hour; St. Michel to Susa, 50 miles, at 9½ miles an hour; Susa to Florence, 323 miles, at 23½ miles an hour. The Italian service, notoriously, as a rule, less expeditious than the French, maintained a speed of 23½ miles an hour, including the passage of the Appenines, while the French mail service from Macon to St. Michel reached only twenty miles. Better proof could hardly be required that the loss of two and a-half hours by the French trains was intentional; and it was no invidious inference, but an inevitable one, that things were so arranged for the benefit and gain of the Marseilles and the Mediterranean line. As regarded the journey homewards there was constant complaint. The mail from Marseilles left at 8.34 p.m. and arrived at Paris at 5.10 a.m., which gave plenty of time to catch the morning mail to England at 7.40 a.m., and allowed the passengers to arrive in London the same evening. But the postal train from Italy was due at Macon at 8.10 p.m., yet the Italian mails and passengers were obliged to wait at Macon till 9.24 p.m., arriving in Paris at 6.55 a.m., too late, under ordinary circumstances, to catch the morning mail to London. He had received about three weeks ago a letter from the Minister of Public Works at Florence, which stated the case precisely to the same effect. He would not trouble the Committee with an account of the difficulties that had been thrown in the way of the Fell Railway. Every difficulty had been thrown in the way of that system by the French Government, and by the spirit of protection which animated the inhabitants; but he was glad to find that the energy of the company was in the way of surmounting them. He could assure his noble Friend the Postmaster General that he had not brought forward this subject with any desire to embarrass the Government, or the Post Office; but as the complaint he made was not without reason, and as he found that such a statement made in the House of Commons, if not disapproved by the Minister, when noticed in the newspapers abroad often had considerable effect in inducing a foreign Government to give way on points which ought never to have been disputed at all, he hoped his noble Friend would give a favourable consideration to the facts of this case. He also wished to ask, referring to quite another subject, Whether there is any objection to affix Letter Boxes for posting Letters to the Mail Railway Vans according to the system adopted in France? He thought that would be a great convenience, and any difficulty might be obviated by increasing the postage stamp to 4d. or 6d.

THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON

said, he would be very glad if the result of public attention being called by his hon. Friend to the question of our communications with Italy should be to produce some improvement. He was quite aware that the inconvenience and delay stated by his hon. Friend did exist; and it was true that up to the present time no attempt had been made by the British Post Office to obtain a remedy. Of course his hon. Friend must be aware that they had no control whatever over the trains which conveyed the mails through France. The only train in France over which the English Post Office had any control was that which conveyed the Overland Mail to India. No doubt the inconvenience of there being virtually no evening mail to Italy was much felt by the commercial community, and it was extremely probable that an opportunity would shortly arise for bringing this matter before the French Government. The Committee were aware that the route to Italy by Brindisi was in process of development, and it was possible that a considerable saving of time might be afforded by that route. When that was done it would be the duty of the English Post Office to enter into communication with the French Government upon the subject of forwarding the English mail bags as quickly as possible through France, and also to request them to accelerate the ordinary mails to Italy. He had no official knowledge of the fact, but he had heard that the French Post Office did not, like that of England, expend large sums in order to obtain the entire control of particular trains. The French Post Office, he was told, paid the railways a comparatively small sum for the use of the ordinary trains, and they did not therefore possess the power which the English Post Office claimed to compel railway companies to run trains at hours not the most convenient to themselves. Considering, however, the large sums paid by the English Post Office to the French Government for postal facilities, he would avail himself of the first convenient opportunity he could find to address them on the subject. With respect to the question of affixing letter boxes to the ordinary mail trains, as in France, he had considered the subject, and found that the consequence would frequently be that through misapprehension on the part of the public the letters, instead of being accelerated, would be taken out of the way. He had, however, made an arrangement equally convenient to the public, by which a letter with an additional fee of 2d. might be received in the railway Post Office van by the mail guard and the sorter, and if its delivery would be accelerated by being taken by that van it would be forwarded.

MR. BENTINCK

said, the explanation of the noble Marquess had been quite satisfactory.

Vote agreed to.

(4.) £709,780, to complete the sum for Post Office Packet Service; no part of which sum is to be applicable or applied in or towards making any payment in respect of any period subsequent to the 20th day of June 1863 to Mr. Joseph George Churchward, or to any person claiming through or under him by virtue of a certain Contract, bearing date the 26th day of April 1859, made between the Lords Commissioners of Her Majesty's Admiralty (for and on behalf of Her Majesty) of the first part, and the said Joseph George Churchward of the second part, or in or towards the satisfaction of any claim whatsoever of the said Joseph George Churchward, by virtue of that Contract, so far as relates to any period subsequent to the 20th day of June 1863.

MR. BAZLEY

asked whether the noble Marquess had entered into any negotiations with the United States with regard to cheap oceanic postage between the two countries?

THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON

said, that no negotiations had been entered into with the United States; but since the Resolution come to by the House he had given the most careful consideration to the subject, and as soon as the state of Public Business would permit he would bring the matter under the consideration of the Government. It was a very large and important question, because a reduction of the postage to 3d. would entail a loss to the revenue of between £40,000 and £45,000 a year. The object to be attained might be desirable, but such a loss ought not lightly to be incurred. Nor would this be the whole extent of the loss, because some modification of our postal system with Canada would be required, and it was probable we might be called upon by the Canadian Government to pay a considerable sum towards the loss inflicted upon the Canadian revenue by these arrangements. The demand would not stop there, because similar claims to reduction might be expected to be made by Australia and India. Before this reduction was sanctioned by the Government, and before negotiations were entered into with the United States, the whole subject must be looked at, and the Government would have to face a very considerable sacrifice of revenue. It would not, however, be necessary to enter into negotiations until a period had arrived more nearly approaching to the beginning of next year.

Vote agreed to.

(5.) £90,000, Telegraph Service.

(6.) £5,000. to complete the sum for Common Law Courts.

COLONEL SYKES

said, the House had a just cause of complaint that Supplementary Estimates of £200,000 had been issued for fixed and permanent charges, which must have been foreseen, and ought to have been included in the regular Estimates. There was an item of £88,000 for the Court of Chancery, £26,000 for the Chief Court of Bankruptcy, and £18,500 for the salaries of the District Court of Bankruptcy. He also complained that this Supplementary Estimate was only delivered that morning, and probably had not been seen by half the Members who were thus called upon to vote away money in ignorance.

MR. AYRTON

said, that the Vote before the House was a re-Vote, in consequence of the expenditure incurred in the previous year not having been paid. According to the more exact system now adopted, the sum had become an additional charge nominally, but not substantially. The Votes for the Court of Chancery, the Chief Court of Bankruptcy, the District Court of Bankruptcy, and the Vote for Superannuations and Retired Allowances, were all Votes that were necessary in consequence of the Bill passed by that House to reform the Bankruptcy Law, and the necessity of paying the salaries of the officers of the Courts of Chancery and Bankruptcy, which were now all to be paid out of Votes in Supply. A Bill had been passed this Session by which in future these different items would be paid for by Votes in Parliament, instead of out of special funds paid into the Exchequer, and not under the control of Parliament. As, however, the Royal Assent had not yet been given to the Bill, it became necessary to take a sum in gross to meet the charges thus created. But a few days, comparatively speaking, had elapsed since the Bill went up to the House of Lords, so that it was absolutely necessary to include these items in a Supplemental Estimate. The Vote for Science and Art was, in fact, a re-Vote of money granted by Parliament as far back as 1865. A foot-note to that item explained that £3,000 was voted in 1865, But only £1,200 was spent, and the balance still remained to be paid to complete the transaction.

MR. SCLATER-BOOTH

said, the very object of a Supplementary Estimate was to cover charges rendered necessary by the legislation of the Session. Admitting, however, the perfect accuracy of the explanation given by the Secretary to the Treasury, he thought that, as regarded the purchase of land in Dublin, in connection with Science and Art, the necessity of it might have been foreseen in time for the sum to be included in the original Estimates.

Vote agreed to.

(7.) £5,000, to complete the sum for Military Prisoners.

(8.) £88,500, Court of Chancery.

(9.) £49,500, Court of Bankruptcy.

(10.) £1,200, to complete the sum for Science and Art Department.

(11.) £8,000, Endowed Schools, England, Commission.

(12.) £30,000, to complete the sum for Superannuations and Retired Allowances.

(13.) £4,500, to complete the sum for Miscellaneous Expenses.

(14.) £68,118, Greenwich Hospital and. Schools.

House resumed.

Resolutions to be reported To-morrow.