HC Deb 09 July 1869 vol 197 cc1582-8
MR. H. A. HERBERT

said, he rose to move—'"That, in the opinion of this House, the grating in front of the Ladies' Gallery should be removed." He brought that subject forward because, in his own opinion and in that of other hon. Members, the existing accommodation for ladies who wished to listen to their discussions was most inadequate. The First Commissioner of Works had declined to take upon himself the responsibility of removing the grating which obstructed the view from the Ladies' Gallery. He, therefore, wished to test the opinion of the House upon that question, more especially as that was a Reformed House of Commons, in which the matter had not been previously discussed. The Ladies' Gallery was divided into three parts. The first part was properly and rightly given up to the Speaker. Behind it was a very comfortable tea-room, with, which, however, they had nothing to do. Then there was the part which was assigned to the wives, daughters, and friends of Members, and which comprised the remaining two-thirds of the Gallery. The Gallery was very dark, very hot, and very low-roofed. The temperature there. was always nearly four degrees higher than in the rest of the House. [Laughter.] It was all very well for hon. Gentlemen to laugh, but they were there for their pleasure, while the ladies came to listen to them; and it was a very poor compliment to the ladies to put them in a place in which they were to be confined—in what had been called a chamber of horrors, where they had to breathe the air that passed through all the lungs of the House. All that was really a disgrace in this age of civilization. If the ladies wanted tea or any refreshment they could only get it in the small room of the door-keeper, who was obliged to go out, so that if any "row" took place in the Gallery, he was not there to suppress it. It was but the other day that complaints were made by the reporters of a noise in the Ladies' Gallery; but this would not have happened if the ladies had a proper tea-room. It was said that the ladies would fidget about, would applaud, and would attract the attention of hon. Members. But no one could have witnessed the recent great debate in the House of Lords without observing how quiet was the demeanour of the large number of ladies who were in the Galleries. The throng of beauty did not attract the attention of noble Lords in the other House, where the ladies were accommodated with seats in which they could see and hear comfortably. No inconvenience was experienced by speakers in the other House from the presence of ladies, neither, he was convinced, would any be experienced by speakers in that House. He agreed with what Lord Palmerston said—that if the Gallery were once opened, in a week hon. Members would forget there was a Gallery. Better accommodation should be provided for ladies in that House. He begged to move the Resolution.

MR. A. JOHNSTON

, in seconding the Motion, said, it had been objected by some that the presence of the ladies in the House under circumstances in which they could be seen would set the hearts of speakers fluttering and palpitating; but he asked whether they could really lay their hands on their hearts and say that when they rose to address the House they ever gave a thought to the presence of the ladies? He had, indeed, heard of an hon. Member who said he never got up to speak without casting a propitiatory glance at the Ladies' Gallery; but that hon. Member had now been removed to another, and, he hoped, a better place. That noble Lord had spoken frequently in the other House, and the presence of ladies there did not seem to have the slightest effect on his speeches. Thirty-five years ago it was said that the debates would be much longer if ladies were admitted to listen to the debates, because hon. Members would speak who did not speak before; but the answer given was that the debates would be much shorter, because Members who then talked very uselessly would be ashamed to do so in the presence of ladies. Mr. O'Connell said the presence of ladies in the Irish Parliament had been of the greatest advantage, because in former days hospitality was exercised to such an extent that many Members of the Irish House of Commons were in the habit of coming there drunk. The remedy proposed was that ladies should be admitted to the Gallery, and from that time no drunken man ever appeared in the House. Mr. Villiers took a most cautious line, hoping that the matter would be discussed in all the populous towns of the kingdom, and declaring that the question was so complicated that he did not think they could consider it in all its bearings and make up their minds in fewer than three Sessions. Mr. Grantley Berkeley modestly disclaimed ulterior views. Now, his ulterior view was to get rid of this Black Hole of Calcutta into which ladies were put when the House repented of putting them into the '' ventilator." He was told by his predecessors of both sexes—[Lauglder]—by those of a former generation, then, if the House preferred that expression—that in some respects the "ventilator" was better than the present arrangement, because when the debates were dull—if debates there ever were dull—there was an open space in which strangers might walk about and talk with Members of the House. A few strokes of the hammer and chisel would get rid of the grating, and he hoped that the right hon. Gentleman the First Commissioner of Works would give them some assurance that the object in view would be accomplished.

Amendment proposed, To leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "in the opinion of this House, the grating in front of the Ladies' Gallery should be removed,"—(Mr. Herbert,) —instead thereof.

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."

MR. BERESFORD HOPE

begged the House not to be carried away by the fervent eloquence of the two hon. Gentlemen, and not do that which he believed seriously—and he did not see why the matter should be treated as a joke— would neither be conducive to the dignity of this House or be considerate to the feelings of those for whose professed benefit the Motion was made. The ladies might be comfortable or not with or without a grating, but it was not in good taste to deal with this as a mere matter of fun. The accommodation of the ladies was just as serious a matter as their own, but in behalf of the ladies themselves he must represent that it would be a cruel kindness to take away that barrier. There were two sides to every question, and to a certain extent the grating impeded sight and sound. But ladies were thereby admitted in that recognized yet not too obtrusive position which best conduced to their own comfort. What was the object of a Ladies' Gallery? Was it to enable a certain number of ladies to add one more to the number of evening parties, and come down here in their best dresses, or was it to allow ladies to enjoy one or two hours of rational, intellectual enjoyment in their morning dresses and bonnets, without being molested by impertinent glances? In behalf, therefore, not of a few fashionable ladies, but of the general ladyhood, and of those who really wished to be able to see and understand the working of our constitutional system, he should oppose the Motion. It was a fact that when the late Member for Westminster (Mr. Mill) was urging woman's rights, a high authority asked him whether he would bring his muse to bear on the removal of the grating, and his answer was that if that grating were removed his daughter would never again come to the House. As to the other House, it must not be forgotten that the wives or daughters of Peers were admitted, not by order, but by right, and that was a totally different question from the admission of ladies to this House by entries in a book or by order. He hoped that they were not going to add a flirting lobby to the House. At all events, by throwing down the barrier they would not add to the dignity of the House, and would bestow a cruel kindness on the ladies. If the hon. Member pressed his Motion he would divide the House.

MR. H. B. SAMUELSON

said, that perhaps the admission of ladies to the Gallery was not an inapt subject for a maiden speech. He was surprised at the line taken on this subject by the hon. Gentleman who had just sat down. The hon. Gentleman had alluded to the jocular way in which the remarks of the two preceding speakers had been received; but he would beg to remind the hon. Gentleman that the laughter did not come from the advocates but from the opponents of the measure, which had been brought forward in a serious spirit, The hon. Gentleman had said that if the grating were removed many ladies who now visited the Gallery would do so no longer. He disagreed with the hon. Gentleman, and he thought that if the grating were removed it would prevent some subjects from being treated in a manner not at all conducive to the dignity of the House. With regard to the assertion that ladies would not come if the grating were removed, because they would have to appear in evening dress, he did not think that argument applied for a moment, because it was the custom in society for both sexes to appear in full dress or neither. [Laughter.] Hon. Gentlemen might laugh, but he believed he was quite correct in what he had stated, and it was no more necessary for a lady to come in full dress than for any hon. Member to appear in evening dress. As to the impertinent glances which, according to the hon. Gentleman, would be directed at the ladies in case they were visible, he did not think it was customary for an assembly of gentlemen to indulge themselves in that manner; and this was not likely to be done in this any more than in the other House of Parliament. The Ladies' Gallery had been called by so high an authority as the Chief Commissioner of Works a "Chamber of Horrors." He thought that was a sufficient reason why some alteration should be made in it. He had frequently been there himself and he had always found that the atmosphere was really unfit for breathing. The grating was, for all practical purposes, perfectly useless, and there could be no earthly reason for not removing it. If his hon. Friend should press the Motion to a division he should certainly vote for it.

MR. LAYARD

said, he did not quite gather from the eloquent speech of the hon. Member for Kerry (Mr. H. A. Herbert)—whose interests he advocated in the Motion he had brought forward— whether he wished the grating removed for the advantage of the Members of the House, or in. order that those who occupied the Ladies' Gallery might have a better opportunity of witnessing the proceedings of the House. The question naturally divided itself into two parts— what might be convenient to hon. Members and what might be most convenient to those who occupied the Gallery. Now, he had thought it advisable to inform himself as to the real feeling of the ladies, for, after all, that was a matter that ought to be taken into consideration. And, although, he might not have so large an acquaintance with ladies as his hon. Friend (Mr. H. A. Herbert), still he had the pleasure of knowing some; and he had taken the means of ascertaining what was the opinion of the ladies on this subject. Now, he must say the result had been to him most unexpected. He might safely say he had asked at least 200 ladies whether they wished the grating to be removed, and, curiously enough, out of that number only two ladies had stated that they were desirous it should be removed. He had received a letter from a lady, which put the matter so clearly that he thought the best thing he could do would be to read it to the House. The letter was in these words— July 1,1869. My dear Mr. Layard,— I do hope you will exert the weight of your official authority to preserve for us the protection of the grating in front of our Gallery, which some hon. Members, no doubt, prompted by feelings of mistaken kindness, are disposed to remove. I fully appreciate the chivalrous zeal of Mr. Herbert, but if you have an opportunity I hope you will tell him how many more effectual ways there are of defending our cause in Parliament and earning our gratitude. Do not suppose that I mean to say that the Ladies' Gallery could not be improved. The occasional visits we receive from our friends in the House of Commons are too short for them to be able to judge of our sufferings up there, or of the quality of the air which you provide for our lungs. But the removal of the grating would be no remedy; on the contrary, the protection we derive from it enables us to sit as we like, to talk together, to hang up our shawls and bonnets, and dress as we please. These are many advantages, for you know we are compelled to sit quiet not to lose our places while bores aré addressing the House. You will not take it amiss, dear Mr. Layard, if I say that there are some bores in the House of Commons. You cannot feel for us, because on these occasions you can go and talk to your friends, and write letters in the library. The grating also enables us to leave the Gallery in the middle of dull speeches, which we would otherwise be compelled to sit out patiently, especially if the orator were an acquaintance, and had obtained our seat for us. And, then, the grating is of enormous advantage to hon. Members themselves, who could not come and stretch, and sleep, and snore as they do immediately below us in the Galleries if they saw that we saw them. And last, but not least, do you not think that a good many ill-natured re marks and suppositions are made impossible by the interposition of this objectionable grating? Who can say now that Mr. —said so-and-so because Lady—was in the gallery, or hat Sir— always stammers and breaks down when Miss—is present? Now, there was a great deal of truth in that letter, and he thought the House would take the ladies' view of the matter. But there was one thing which the ladies had a right to expect of the House, and that was that they should improve the Ladies' Gallery as much as possible. He had gone the other day to examine the Gallery, and he confessed with shame that he was shocked at the spectacle that met his view. He went early, thinking the door would be open, but it was closed, and a large number of ladies were sitting on the steps waiting for the Gallery to be opened. That was not a creditable state of things, but after the lesson he had received last night he should be very bold indeed if he ventured on any structural alterations without receiving the direct sanction of the House. What could be done was rather difficult to say. He did not think the removal of the grating would be any advantage to the ladies. On the contrary, from all the information he had received, he believed it would not be considered a favour. But what should be done was to improve the Gallery as much as possible. Neither the accommodation provided nor the ventilation was fit for ladies. How the requisite alterations could best be effected he would endeavour to ascertain during the Recess, but he would not do anything without the full sanction of the House. So much for the ladies' view of this question. With regard to the Gentlemen's view of it, that, of course, must be left to the decision of the House. For himself, he must say he thought the removal of the grating would be no improvement, and he believed a large majority of the House would concur with him in that opinion.

MR. H. A. HERBERT

said, after the remarks made by the Chief Commissioner of Works, he should not call on the House to divide on the subject.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.