HC Deb 22 February 1869 vol 194 cc165-9

Resolution considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

MR. GLADSTONE

Sir, I rise to propose a Resolution for leave to bring in a Bill to amend and extend the provisions of certain Acts relating to what are commonly known as political pensions, and the object of this Motion particularly is to bring under the consideration of this House certain alterations which we think might with advantage be made in the Act by which political pensions are regulated—an Act passed in 1834. Before that period the subject of political pensions was one which caused much difficulty and dissatisfaction. There was no rule applicable to them, and transactions of an irregular character, and which were not governed by any law or system, were continually occurring. The period of the Government of Earl Grey was probably among the very best in our history so far as regards the mature consideration which was then given to administrative questions and the amount of sagacity which was brought to bear on them, and the Act of 1834, which laid the foundation both of a superannuation system and of a method for the regulation of political pensions may, I think, deservedly be regarded as an Act of high authority. But, of course, with the changes of circumstances, it will naturally occur that a measure of that kind is found in process of time to require amendment, and Parliament has thought it wise upon a later occasion to develop and otherwise to alter this portion of the Act which relates to pensions affecting what is commonly called the permanent Civil Service, for the sake of distinction from that portion of the Civil Service which is political. I now propose, after the experience of thirty-five years, certain changes in those clauses of the Act which relate to political pensions. Thirty-five years is, indeed, no short period for the consideration of such an Act, and the alterations of our arrangements which have occurred in that period—I mean our arrangements with reference to the organization of the Government—have been very considerable. There are two points to which the alterations I propose will apply. In the first place, there is in the Act of 1834 a certain mixture of non-political with political pensions. The second Secretary to the Admiralty, and all the Under Secretaries of State, whether political or non-political, are placed on one and the same footing as to pensions, and difficulties have arisen in certain cases in the administration of the Act with respect to some officers of that class which it is manifestly desirable to obviate for the future. With respect to the system of pensions established by the Act, the House may be aware that it is peculiar in many respects; but when I so describe it, I do not mean on that account in the slightest degree to disparage the provisions of the Act. The Act, however, takes a view essentially different—and in that respect I think it is quite justified—of the position in regard to pension of the political officer and of the civil officer who is not political. The civil officer who is not a political officer is presumed, after his term of service (subject to the conditions of the Act, and on the supposition of his good conduct) to have a right to a pension. The political officer however is not presumed by the Act to have anything that can be called a right to a pension. The political pensions which are contemplated by the Act appear to hare been intended by the Legislature to prevent the public inconvenience which might arise from the discouragement of men of capacity, but not of great fortune, from engaging in the public service if this were to happen, that those who had been called to fill certain stations, and to hold a certain social rank as servants of the Crown, were, after filling those offices with the various responsibilities attached to them, and possibly after conferring great services on the country, to be left in such a condition, by no fault of their own, but it may be in consequence of their own self-denial in devoting themselves to the public service, that they might be destitute of adequate means for supporting their social station. For this purpose the provisions of the Act were framed, and on this principle. In the first place, there was a limitation of the amounts of pension which might be given by the Act, according to the ranks of the offices to which they referred. In the second place, there was a limitation of the number of years during which any person must have served in order to qualify and obtain eligibility for pension. In the third place, there was an absolute limitation on the number of pensions which might be granted and might be in force at any one given period in the different classes established by the Act. In the fourth place, there was a limitation, which was likewise absolute, that no political officer could take a pension under the Act except after having made a declaration to the effect that it was necessary with a view to that reasonable support of station which the Act contemplated as desirable. And, in the last place, there was this condition, that the pension, subject to all those prior stipulations, should be granted at the discretion and upon the responsibility of the Executive Government of the day. As respects these conditions, I do not propose to alter the root or basis of any one of them. There might, I think, be some modification in a portion of them, which would tend, however, rather to the reduction than to the augmentation of the number of pensions contemplated by the Act. The bearing of those conditions upon one another, numerous as they are, constitutes a subject that is rather complex, on which it will not, I think, be possible for the Committee or the House to form a judgment until a Bill is printed and placed in their hands. But the main reason for an alteration of that portion of the Act which refers to political offices is this, that it is quite evident that, in the intention of the Legislature, the Act was meant to apply, upon an equable principle, to all offices and all political officers who stood substantially in the same position. Now, since the Act was passed, the changes have been so numerous that that object is no longer gained. Many offices which then existed now exist no longer, and many which now exist have been brought into existence since the passing of the Act, and consequently do not fall within its provisions; and the main rectification which I propose to attain by the Bill I shall ask leave to bring in is, while we strike out of the Act those offices which no longer exist, and which were placed into it at a former period with reference to the circumstances then existing, that there shall be introduced into the Act other offices which did not then exist, and possibly also in some cases one or two offices which did then exist, but which, on account of some special considerations perhaps not well understood, were not included in the Act, so that the candidates for those offices—the list of possible candidates for them—will undergo some change while the conditions of obtaining pensions will, in the main, remain the same, although in certain points it may be desirable to modify them. Now, this is a subject with regard to which it is the duty of the Executive Government, having, as they have, a knowledge of the administrative departments of the country and their relations, frankly to lay their views before the House at a period when they think the time is suitable for legislation and that an adequate necessity for it has arisen. Therefore, instead of merely asking the House itself to examine the question, I shall propose to place before it the changes which the Government think might reasonably and properly be made. Nor do I think that the House will find that there is any reason to object to the spirit in which those changes have been conceived. But while I hold that the Executive Government ought not to shrink from its ordinary and proper responsibility in submitting its views on this matter to the House, I must say, on the other hand, that on this question of all others it would be most repugnant to the intentions and opinions of the Government that anything like pressure or authority should be brought to bear by them for the purpose of inducing the acceptance of those views by the House. Every question in one sense, but especially questions relating to pensions and superannuation, and most of all questions relating to pensions available for those who have served in political offices, ought to be determined by the independent and impartial judgment of the House itself. Therefore, we shall in the first instance invite the scrutiny of the House into our views by laying this Bill—if I am permitted to make the Motion—on the table; in the second place, I shall take care that ample time is afforded for its consideration by the House before the House is called upon to give any sanction to its principle by a second reading. And when the second reading shall have been passed—if the Bill so far meets the approval of the House—we shall be desirous to invite the concurrence of the House in any mode of considering its provisions in detail which, may be suggested or may appear to be generally convenient. I think, Sir, that these remarks are all that are necessary to introduce the Resolution which I am about to move. The Resolution has been drawn up in terms formally and technically correct, and begins with the words "That it is expedient to amend and extend the provisions" of certain Acts; but after what I have said, the House will understand that it is for technical reasons that the word "extend" is con templated, rather than because we in any way intend or endeavour to render eligibility for political pensions more easy of access. The right hon. Gentleman concluded by accordingly moving a Resolution declaring it expedient to amend and extend the provisions of the Acts in question.:

Resolution agreed to. Resolved, That it is expedient to amend and extend the provisions of the Acts 57 Geo. 3, c. 65, and 6 Geo. 4, c. 90, enabling Her Majesty to recompense the Services of persons holding, or who have held, certain high and efficient Civil Offices, and of the Act 4 and 5 Will. 4, c. 24, regulating Pensions, Compensations, and Allowances to persons having held Civil Offices in Her Majesty's Service.

Resolution to be reported Tomorrow.