HC Deb 29 May 1868 vol 192 cc1081-5
MR. GREENE

said, he would beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, The intention of the Government on the Committee on Coal Mines? With respect to accidents in coal mines he was satisfied, from conversations which he had had with the owners of these mines, that the number of them might be greatly reduced, and he thought the House ought to give its calm and dispassionate consideration to that important subject. He desired to impress upon the House that the inspectors did not visit the mines in such a manner as to be of any practical use in the prevention of accidents. He thought that much good might be effected by the appointment of educated and practical men to act under the present inspectors of mines. He knew it was a disputed question whether by the appointment of official inspectors the responsibility of the owners of mines might not be weakened; but he was himself convinced that active and competent officers, carrying out an efficient system of inspecting mines from time to time, would do much practical good in preventing these most deplorable casualties. They had had a Report presented to that House from a Committee appointed to inquire into this subject, but no action whatever had been taken upon that Report. He regretted that a question which involved the lives and health and comfort of so large a class of the industrial population should attract so little interest in the House. He had been asked why he took up the question, and his reply was that he might be regarded as impartial on the question, because he had no interest in coal mines and did not represent a coal country. His own opinion was that any inquiry into this subject should be entrusted to a Commission composed of eminent scientific men. They all knew that in time of battle a man valued his life at very little; but that in time of peace he valued it greatly. If he should be a Member of the Reformed Parliament he would endeavour to attract its attention to this subject, and he would not leave it till he had seen a fair and honest attempt made to grapple with it. He would just say that he did not wish to in- terfere with any arrangement between masters and men.

MR. AYRTON

said, the hon. Member had misunderstood his relations with the House if he imagined that there was the other evening the least indisposition on the part of the House to entertain this question. The fact was the hon. Member brought it forward at a most inopportune moment. He received an intimation to that effect from the House; and there was a feeling that he did not do justice to the gravity of the subject; for the hon. Member introduced it as a new one, as if he had suddenly discovered that something ought to be done, while, in fact, the House had thirty years ago, and upon many occasions since, devoted much attention to it, and Parliament had passed an Act to prevent accidents in coal mines. Since the passing of the Act the House had appointed a Committee to make inquiries into the subject, and that Committee, which was presided over by his hon. Friend the Member for Oxford (Mr. Neate), had sat during three Sessions, and had received a considerable amount of scientific evidence from persons practically acquainted with the working of mines. After the conclusion of the inquiry his hon. Friend prepared an elaborate Report, which was presented to the House at the close of last Session At the beginning of this Session his hon. Friend asked him (Mr. Ayrton) what course he should take, and his answer was that the Government ought to be allowed a certain time to carry out the recommendations in the Report; and that if they failed to do their duty then it would be his duty to bring the Report under the consideration of the House, and to urge the Government to do something upon it. Whilst that point was under consideration they were surprised to find that the hon. Member had placed a Motion on the Paper for the appointment of a Royal Commission. Now, if that Notice meant anything it could only have a tendency to disparage the labours of that Committee, and to re-open the whole inquiry. [Mr. GREENE: Hear, hear!] If that was the object of the hon. Member he would put it to the House whether he had done any useful service to the mining population of the country? The result had been that the hon. Member, from his want of knowledge, perhaps, had himself practically obstructed the progress of the question more than anyone. [Mr. GREENE: No!] But he did do so. He had illustrated the old adage, "Most haste, worst speed." If he, instead of suddenly rushing into this question had taken the trouble to inform himself correctly of what had been done during the past thirty years—[Mr. GREENE: I had done so.]—he would have rendered more service than by plunging into it, and in bringing it under the consideration of the House in the manner in which he had done. If the hon. Member had informed himself, he had not done so with the advantage which might have been expected. The fact was, through the course he had taken he had prevented the Chairman of the Committee from bringing the Report under the notice of the House. Nothing would be more useless than appointing a roving Commission, to take what was called scientific evidence. Having taken part in the labours of the Committee he trusted their Report would receive the attention of the Government, and that the Home Secretary would intimate that evening what course the Government proposed to adopt for the purpose of giving effect to their recommendations.

LORD ELCHO

said, he was very glad that his hon. and learned Friend the Member for the Tower Hamlets (Mr. Ayrton) had justified the House from the aspersions cast upon them by the hon. Member for Bury St. Edmunds (Mr. Greene), because the hon. Member would have led the country, and the miners in particular, to imagine that there was an indifference felt in that House to protect the lives and interests of the working population of this country, of whom the miners were as good specimens as could be found; while from his own knowledge there had been an earnest desire to endeavour to legislate practically upon it in order that the lives of Her Majesty's subjects might be preserved. He thought the Motion of the hon. Member was unnecessary. What was wanted was practical legislation, and not further inquiry; and this was confirmed by Mr. M'Donnell, the President of the Miners' Union, who, indeed, had stated that if the Act already passed were put into force, protection could be given to the miners. There were ample powers under the Mines Inspection Act, if properly and judiciously exercised, to establish a healthy state of ventilation in mines, if the Secretary of State for the Home Department would only put them in operation. There was also power to fence off places suspected to contain explosive gases; but to use these powers effectively it was necessary there should be proper inspection; the present inspection was deficient in quantity. There were twelve inspectors of mines, and some of these gentlemen had 600 mines to inspect, a matter physically impossible. The two greatest accidents in recent years were those at the Oaks and the Ferndale Collieries, and it was alleged that the Oaks pit had not been inspected for five years. The only question between the Committee and the miners was this: the Committee recommended the appointment of more inspectors, the present system of inspection being inefficient; and the miners recommended the appointment of men of their own class as sub-inspectors. They said that the class of men who filled the position of overmen and viewers were sufficiently scientific for the purpose of inspection. If it should be objected that these gentlemen recommended themselves for the position, his answer would be that it would be well that they should have something to look forward to, and that a position of trust was a proper object for the ambition of those men who raised themselves above their fellow-workmen. The miners proposed that the sub-inspectors should have power to enter the pits at all times, but that they should not interfere with the working of them, nor say one word to the men; but if they should see any reason for increased ventilation, they should report to that effect to one of the head Inspectors, and he should go and inspect the mine himself; and they further said that, with a proper system of inspection, accidents would be minimized, and that such an accident as the one at the Oaks Colliery would not occur. He could not help thinking that if it had not been for the great Irish question, which had put a stop to all practical legislation for this Session, the Government would have been prepared to bring in a Bill to carry out the views of the Select Committee. There was a great anxiety throughout the whole mining population of the country that something should be done, and should the present Government remain in Office, he hoped they would be prepared to deal with the subject.

MR. NEWDEGATE

said, he did not think blame ought to be attached to the hon. Member for Bury St. Edmunds (Mr. Greene) for having brought this question again under the consideration of the House. On the last occasion when the subject was before them a count out took place; and such an occurrence was calculated to lead the miners to suppose that their interests were neglected in this House. Under the guidance of the Home Secretary, he had no doubt improvements might be made in the present mode of inspection There were some districts in which novel experiments were tried with a view to cheapen the price of obtaining the mineral, and it was in such cases that more stringent regulations as regarded inspection were required. He would not express an opinion as to whether a Royal Commission ought to be issued or not, but this he would say—if additional legislation were needed, he knew no one more likely to carry that legislation into effect than the present Home Secretary.

MR. WHALLEY

said, he was personally connected with mines as an owner, and he was convinced that, though the appointment of inspectors might have had a good effect here and there, still, on the whole, it was not equal to the supervision on the part of the owners of mines and persons interested in them which it had superseded. A good medium course was now open to the Government—to bring to the aid of the paid inspectors the opinions of those personally interested in the mines.