MR. BRUCEsaid, he rose to call attention to the Report of the Select Committee on Mines (1867), and to ask Her Majesty's Government, Whether they propose to give effect to the recommendations of such Committee? Considering the circumstances of the present Session, he did not blame the Government for not bringing in a Bill to embody those recommendations; but he was anxious to recall attention to them, because he felt that on their adoption materially depended the safety of an important part of the population. A great many serious accidents occurred in mines; but the attention of the public was attracted almost solely to those which were 1499 of an appalling nature, and which were caused by explosions. The average number of deaths from accidents in mines during the last ten years was 1,000 deaths a year, and it was remarkable that during that time only 100 per annum of that number, or one-tenth, were deaths from explosion; while the far most prolific cause of injury—namely, the fall of the roof, to which nearly 40 per cent of the loss of life was due, was almost wholly overlooked. The question of accidents in mines had recently been considered by a Committee of that House, who had conducted a very laborious inquiry, extending over the greater part of two years. The Committee was originally presided over by the hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets (Mr. Ayrton); but, as he had been prevented from attending, he was succeeded in the Chair by the hon. Member for Oxford (Mr. Neate), whose zeal and energy in conducting the inquiry could not be surpassed, and merited the warmest acknowledgments of the House. The present moment was favourable to the consideration of the subject, for both masters and men had shown a desire for useful legislation. The Committee began by recommending that an alteration should be made in the last Act of Parliament, which allowed children of ten years of age to be employed. They proposed that no child under twelve years of age should be allowed to be employed, and with this recommendation he entirely concurred. Not a month passed without death from accident occuring among children of tender age, who were exposed to risks and unable to take care of themselves. There was another reason in withdrawing these children from the mines, because at this age they ought to be enjoying the benefits of education. It was impossible to apply the principle of the Factory Acts to children so employed, and it would be better that no children under twelve should be employed in mines, without imposing any farther condition as to education in the thirteenth year. Another recommendation was that youths under sixteen should not be employed for more than twelve hours continuously. A valuable suggestion, made by the hon. Member for Glamorganshire (Mr. Hussey Vivian), was that whenever more than 100 men were employed in any mine it should be sub-divided into compartments, each having its own complete means of ventilation. The result would be that only a portion of the people employed would be endangered by on accident. If such a 1500 regulation had been in force two-thirds of the lives lost at Ferndala and other places might have been saved. Another source of accidents in mines was the falling in of the roofs, the annual average of deaths resulting from which cause was no less than 400. During the last ten years upwards of 3,900 deaths had been produced in that way. Those accidents were usually guarded against by advancing a roof of timber as the miner pushed on his work in the coal seam. That was often done, when left to the collier himself, in a very reckless manner. Mr. Wynne, one of Her Majesty's Inspectors, had induced the coalowners of his district to appoint men whose special business it was to see that the workmen did their duty in that matter; and after an experience of five years the number of accidents from that cause had diminished by 40 per cent. In the North of England that work was always intrusted to men told off for it; and it was the recommendation of the Committee that in no case should the workmen discharge that duty, but that it should be undertaken by the colliery owners and their agents. Another cause of accidents had been attributed to the inefficiency of the Government system of inspection. Much difference of opinion existed on that subject. The majority of the inspectors were of opinion that their number was sufficient for the purpose originally contemplated by their appointment—it never having been intended that, on the part of the Government, every colliery throughout the country should be inspected by a Government Inspector. In some colliery districts there were sixty or seventy miles of subterranean roads, and it was utterly impossible, except by the most gigantic system of inspection, for the inspectors to acquaint themselves so completely with the underground working as to preclude the chance of such accidents happening. He had lately presented a petition from the miners of the Monmouth and South Wales district, in which they proposed that, in addition to the existing inspectors, a great number of sub-inspectors of an inferior class should be appointed to visit every colliery in every district once in every three weeks or a month, and report every three months to the inspector, and that the inspectors should every year send to the Secretary of State a complete account of the collieries of every district throughout the country. If the Government were to act upon that proposition, the result would be that they would be held re- 1501 sponsible for every accident that occurred. After all, the safety of every colliery must depend not only on the wise liberality of the employers, the skill and knowledge of the agents and viewers, but also on the unceasing watchfulness and vigilance of the men themselves and of those who were set over them. He concurred in the recommendation of the Committee, and thought there should he a limited increase in the number of inspectors. The inspector should have a general acquaintance with the character of every colliery throughout his district, and where, either from information given him or from his general knowledge of a particular colliery, he suspected the existence of any mismanagement, he ought to make a proper inquiry. Though the number of inspectors had been doubled since they were first appointed he did not think it was yet sufficient. There were, he believed, very serious objections to the employment for that responsible duty of men in the position of sub-inspectors. It would be very difficult to get a sufficient number of persons who would be able to perform such a duty. In the next place the smallness of the payment which it would be possible to give them would expose them to the temptation of bribes, and in a short time there would be a want of confidence in the Reports of the sub-inspectors. The next subject to which the Committee called attention was the employment of stipendiary magistrates in the colliery districts. The safety of collieries was provided for by certain general rules which under Act of Parliament must be adopted in every colliery, and also by special rules applicable to the circumstances of each particular colliery, and which were approved by the Secretary of State. The enforcement of those rules of course depended on the local magistracy; and it so happened that throughout the colliery districts the Bench was not so strong as it usually was in other parts of the country. It was of the highest importance that these delicate duties should be discharged by magistrates whose authority was respected and whose impartiality was above suspicion. One of the inspectors stated that in Monmouthshire he always failed in his prosecutions, while in another county his appeals to the stipendiary justice always succeeded. That subject was certainly a very difficult one. At present when stipendiary magistrates were appointed it was upon the application of the district. His own suggestion would be that where a statement was made to the Home Office that a dis- 1502 trict required the services of a stipendiary magistrate an inquiry should be instituted analogous to that preliminary to the adoption of the Public Health Act in towns; and if, after consideration of the Report of their Inspector, the Government thought the appointment of a stipendiary magistrate was necessary for that district it should appoint one, define the limits of his district, and also decide what should be his salary. He believed the appointment of these stipendiary magistrates would give satisfaction throughout the colliery districts. Another of the Committee's recommendations was that the Acts relating to collieries should not only be amended but consolidated; it being a great impediment to justice when Acts were partially repealed and different portions of the same subject were dealt with in separate Acts of Parliament. Over and above the recommendations of the Committee, it had been suggested that a Commission should be appointed to inquire into other matters, which might not be supposed to come fairly within the scope of a Committee of that House, the Members of which wore not sufficiently versed in the details of mining to give an authoritative opinion upon them. No doubt there were some important questions connected with the safety of collieries and also with the economical working of coal seams still to be solved. There existed the most different systems for that purpose, with the most startling difference in the results. He was informed that there existed in England and Wales differences to this extent—that under one system all but 17 per cent of coal could ha extracted, while in other and very wide districts, under a different system, the quantity of coal lost to the public was 30 or 40 per cent. Of course, the House could not insist on the adoption of a particular mode of working coal; but he was informed that the mode which was most economical was also that by which the most perfect ventilation of the mine could be secured, and the safety of the colliers was a matter on which Parliament had the right to legislate. Another question connected with ventilation, and likewise with the economical working of a coal mine, was well known in the North of England as the double-shift system, which existed universally in the North. Under it in every colliery the men worked eight hours instead of twelve, and were succeeded by another shift, which also worked eight hours; and as a consequence of that their labours could be carried on in a much smaller area than 1503 where the single-shift system prevailed. Ventilation was the great safeguard against accidents by explosion; and a great economy of human life could be effected by the introduction of the double-shift system. It was, however, greatly opposed by the colliers themselves where it had not taken root. He would suggest the appointment of a skilled Commission to inquire into this subject, and to report upon its results in security, economy, and safety. The recommendations of the Committee were marked by moderation, and he had only, in conclusion, to express a hope that the whole subject would receive the attention of the Government during the approaching Recess.
§ MR. GATHORNE HARDYsaid, he had so recently addressed the House on the subject that he need do little more than briefly to repeat what he had then stated. The subject was one which had not been lost sight of by the Government; and his hon. Friend the Under Secretary for the Home Department had had several interviews, at which he himself had not time to be present, with persons who took an active interest in it. He had, however, carefully considered the Report to which his right hon. Friend opposite had drawn his attention, and he must add that no one was better qualified to deal with the question than the right hon. Gentleman, or possessed a more thorough acquaintance with it. He felt—having, as he said, carefully considered the Report—that it was impossible to introduce any measure on the subject during the present Session; but he could assure the House that it had been and was occupying the attention of the Ministry. Whether it might or might not be desirable to make some inquiry also into the case of the ventilation of tin and copper mines, he did not exactly know; but he did not think there was such a lack of information on the point as to render such an inquiry necessary. If, however, there were any particular matters with respect to which sufficient information had not already been procured, the country would not, he felt satisfied, grudge any expense which might be incurred in obtaining it, even to the fullest extent. The question of the stipendiary magistrates was a somewhat difficult one to deal with, because hitherto no justice had been appointed without a requisition from persons interested in the subject. What he understood his right hon. Friend to recommend was a sort of local inquiry, by means of which it was supposed that both the feel- 1504 ings and wants of any particular district might be ascertained, and the services of magistrates secured who were acquainted with its business and would be likely to be disinterested in deciding the questions which might be brought before them. He must add that he thought the multiplication of sub-inspectors to any considerable extent would tend to take away the responsibility for the proper working of our collieries from those to whom that responsibility now attached. He was not at all sure, however, that it might not be found expedient to increase the number of inspectors, so that a fuller knowledge of the mode in which different mines were worked might be obtained, although that knowledge was already pretty extensive. Probably all the information necessary might be obtained from the inspectors, and there would be no occasion for the appointment of a Commission for the purpose.
§ MR. KINNAIRDthanked the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Merthyr Tydvil (Mr. Bruce) for having brought the subject before the House. He thought it would be very unfortunate if Parliament should separate without some expression of opinion on it. He hoped that the Home Secretary would make public any additional information which might be lying in his office, so that it might be diffused throughout the country for the information and satisfaction of the public mind during the Recess.
§ MR. NEATEsaid, that whatever opinion the working miners might entertain as to the value of the labours of the Committee which sat on the subject, every one who had presented himself before it must feel that their cases had been listened to with the greatest care and attention. He must add that he was not altogether satisfied with the speech which had just been made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department as to the need of legislation. At the same time, there was no doubt that the circumstances of the present Session were somewhat extraordinary, and as the Government had waited so long before introducing any measure on the subject, he thought they would do well to avail themselves of the recommendations of the Commission which had been appointed to inquire into the supply of coal, so that provision might, if possible, be made for the more effectual and economical working of our coal fields. He thought, however, that they might at once increase the number of inspectors, and he did not see how a measure of that kind would re- 1505 move any responsibility from the coal-owners. To show the value of inspection, he might observe that he was told by a great authority—Mr. Dickinson—a few days ago, that he had gone into a mine, and that his attention was attracted by what he believed to be a great accumulation of gas in part of it. He satisfied himself that such was the case by applying his lamp to it; and he had some difficulty in impressing upon the manager the danger of such accumulations and the necessity of attending to the matter. That furnished, he thought, ft good illustration of the good which inspectors might do by entering mines. He could not reconcile the limited view which the Government inspectors took of their duty with the 22 &c 24 Vict., which empowered them to visit mines at all times of the day and night; and the point was one with which, in his opinion, the Government might deal at once. Another point to which he would invite their attention was the expediency of subjecting the managers of mines to the necessity of obtaining certificates, as was the case, for instance, with the captains of ships; and neglect of duty should be punished by the suspension of the certificate. Since 1832, Parliament had done great things in improving conditions of labour, especially in the case of young persons, and he thought it was well worthy of consideration whether there might not be a Board formed to have, under the control of the Hume Department, charge of all the different organizations for regulating the conditions of labour. To such a Board the inspectors might make all their Reports, and the head of the Board might communicate these Reports, in a condensed form to the Home Office.
§ MR. GREENEsaid, he was glad of the discussion of this evening, because it would show the public that there was not in the House of Commons such apathy on this subject as might have been supposed in consequence of what occurred when the dangers of coal mines was brought under the notice of the House on a recent occasion. He thought the question was one which ought to occupy the attention of the House from time to time. From an observation made by the hon. and learned Member for the Tower Hamlets (Mr. Ayrton) on a former occasion, it would appear that the hon. and learned Gentleman thought that he had been guilty of some presumption in calling attention to accidents in coal mines. [Mr. AYRTON 1506 said the hon. Gentleman was mistaken.] If he were to read the hon. and learned Gentleman's remarks, he thought the House would agree with him that they had that interpretation. As the hon. and learned Gentleman so frequently occupied the attention of the House, he did not see why even so humble a Member as himself might not be permitted to bring forward a question of such importance. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Merthyr (Mr. Bruce) had mentioned to the House that the largest portion of the accidents in coal mines occurred from the falling in of the roof. He (Mr. Greene) believed that the arrangements for the prevention of such accidents were not at all what they ought to be. Then, as to the inspectors, twelve were not enough for the work to be done. He hoped that, if not in this Session, there would be legislation on the whole subject before the end of next year.
§ MR. BAGNALLsaid, he hoped that if there was to be an addition to the staff for inspection, it would be in the appointment of additional inspectors, and not in that of sub-inspectors.
§ MR. HUSSEY VIVIANsaid, he regretted that circumstances had interfered to prevent legislation on the subject; but after the statement of the Secretary of State for the Home Department he was persuaded that some attempt to alter the law for the better would be mode next Session. He believed a Commission would hardly be able to develop any facts of importance in addition to those which had been already elicited by three Committees of this House and by the Committee of the House of Lords, which had ably inquired into the question. He believed that all the substantial facts relating to the subject were already fully known; but at the same time these accidents were of so dreadful a character that if it appeared to be the opinion of the working colliers that a Royal Commission might be able to make valuable suggestions which had not been made hitherto for the greater security of their lives, he should be glad to support the appointment of such a Commission. With regard to the Commission on the future coal supply he hoped it would make its Report before, next Session; but the inquiry was extensive, and he could not say when it would conclude. There was, however, no connection between that question and the subject now under discussion; and he saw no reason for the postponement of legislation with respect to acci- 1507 dents in mines pending the inquiry of the Commission. He believed there would be no difficulty in the way of passing a really good measure upon the subject. A very valuable suggestion had been made by a well-known colliery inspector and viewer (Mr. Buddie), that mines should be separated into districts, each district having separate means of ventilation. If that suggestion were carried out he believed we should not again have such enormous sacrifices of life by colliery accidents as we had had recently at the Oaks and Ferndale collieries. The plan was somewhat similar to that adopted with regard to buildings for the manufacture of gunpowder, which were so arranged that the explosion of one building could not cause the explosion of another. Another valuable suggestion, made by Mr. Nixon, an extensive coalowner in his district, was for the general introduction of the double shift system, which would also tend to lessen the sacrifice of life when any colliery accident should happen. With regard to the inspection of mines, he thought the general feeling of the country would be against the introduction of a lower class of inspectors, and that anything which tended to lower the standard of the inspectors and the confidence placed in them would tend to diminish the advantages of the system of inspection. With reference to the mode of dealing with cases of offences arising in coal mines, he would observe that in many mineral counties there were already stipendiary magistrates, and he would suggest the expediency of requiring that offences under the Mines Act should be tried before a stipendiary magistrate instead of the ordinary bench of justices. As it was, the coalowner was placed in an awkward position. He was compelled to carry out the strictest discipline; and if any of the rules were transgressed his only remedy was to summon the offender before the bench of magistrates, and then he was often unable to obtain a conviction. Magistrates at petty sessions did not sufficiently appreciate the seriousness of breaches of regulation in coalmines. It should be remembered that some things, such as smoking or the possession of lucifer matches, which were no offence at all above ground, were most serious offences underground, and might lead to the most fatal results. Punishment for such offences would be much more certain if a stipendiary magistrate heard the case. With regard to the officers who had charge of the mines he could not agree with the hon. 1508 and learned Member for Oxford (Mr. Neate) who had conducted the inquiry before the Committee in the most able manner. He did not think any good result would follow from a system of certificates. He should prefer to see them not men deeply versed in mathematics or history, but sound practical men upon whose practical knowledge the safety of the men employed might be allowed to rest with security. He thought that the coalowners themselves must be the best judges of the men to put in charge of the mines. He again expressed an earnest hope that the subject would be legislated upon in the course of nest Session.
§ MR. LEATHAMI rise, Sir, merely to say a word to strengthen the hands of the Government (in the absence of further legislation) in the appointment of a larger number of inspectors. I am quite aware that it is very important not to shift the responsibility from the owners of mines to the inspectors; but I am of opinion that if the inspectors are to be of substantial use their number must be largely increased. I believe there are now twelve inspectors of mines. If I may venture to suggest to the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary the amount of their increase, I should say that they ought to be at once doubled. I have my own opinion respecting some of the causes of accidents in coal mines. I happen to live where there are coal measures, within eight miles of the Oaks colliery, where there was recently a most fearful accident, to which allusion has frequently been made in this House and elsewhere. I have nothing to do, directly or indirectly, with coal mines, and I have no scientific knowledge of the working of them; but I am of opinion that where a fiery seam of coal exists, as is the case in some parts of Yorkshire, that the present system of ventilation is on a wrong principle; that the use of large fires at the bottom of one of the shafts of the mine, to produce a draft and ventilate the mine, is a most dangerous method, because, if any of the return-air of the pit happens to pass over that furnace, the dangers of explosion are great. I do not pretend to suggest a more efficient mode of ventilation; but it has often struck me that pumping fresh air down into the pit so as to drive the return-air up another shaft would effect this purpose. Again, the size of the pit has often much to do with the chances of explosion. I am aware that the law now requires two shafts in 1509 every pit; but some of the pits are extended to such a size that four or five shafts are really required for the safety of the pit. I merely throw these out as suggestions, to those who are more capable of looking into the subject, and in the absence of further legislation on this interesting subject, I beg again, respectfully, to ask the Government not to delay in the appointment of a considerable number of fresh inspectors of mines.