OBSERVATIONS. (Hansard, 29 July 1868)

§ MR. THOMAS HUGHES
, who had given Notice to call attention to the inaccurate state of the Standard of Weight and Measure, and to the present system of enforcing the law, whereby half the penalties are paid to the informer, said, he was sorry to have to call the attention of the House to so important a question as that of the standards of weights and measures at this period of the Session, as of course 1925 he could not expect that the House would go into the matter thoroughly. But those who were interested in the question as he was—for the county of Surrey was unfortunately the first in the Returns of penalties for the use of inaccurate weights and measures—had hoped that the Government would have been able to bring in a measure this Session, and had therefore put off calling attention to this subject earlier. He believed that the Government were waiting for the Report of the Standards Commission; but as they would, he supposed, have the whole question under their consideration in the Recess, there were several points which he wished to call their attention to. First, as to the present custom of giving half the penalties to the informer. Nothing could be worse than such a system, as would be clear to the House by the case of his own borough. In Lambeth there were two Inspectors of weights and measures, one of whom was lately a common police-constable, and the other in an equally humble condition in life. These officers were paid a fixed salary of £250 each with half the penalties in addition; and these penalties amounted in the past year to upwards of £1,200, so that the salaries of these officers had been more than doubled by the penalties. It was well to pay such officers a proper salary, but not well to make their salary depend upon the amount of fines inflicted. Then there was the question of tribunals. The present one was eminently unsatisfactory. In Surrey, for instance, no register of convictions was kept by the magistrates, so that there could be no really satisfactory evidence as to the degree of guilt of any person who was summoned. In illustration of the way in which this branch of the law was administered, he might state that in one day at Islington upwards of 120 cases were got through in four hours and a half. On inquiry it was found that in nearly every case the same fine of 5s. had been inflicted, and in no less than twenty-six of the cases the defendants had been fined, for having weights which were actually heavier than the standards. Then as to the standards themselves. Before the Act of 1866 the Board of Trade standards had not been verified for forty years. By the present law they must be verified once in ten years; but this was much too seldom. He thought it should be done at least every six years. The secondary standards, which were in constant use, were to he verified once in 1926 five years. But if he was rightly informed, the wear and tear of the standards would make a difference of a drachm a year. Surely, therefore, the standards in ordinary use should be verified every year. The method of setting the standards right, too, seemed to be very objectionable. He had seen only yesterday a standard weight in, which the adjustment had been made by soldering a piece of lead roughly on to the bottom of the weight. Then, again, the Act of 1866 empowered Her Majesty in Council to settle what amount of variation might be tolerated between the standards at the Board of Trade and the secondary standards. He did not know whether any scale of variation had been fixed by Order in Council, but if it had, it ought to be extended to the variation between the secondary standards and those of tradesmen. If the Vice President of the Board of Trade could give some information as to the amount of variation which was tolerated at present, it would be interesting, he thought, to the House, and certainly to himself, representing as he did an important trading constituency in the south of London. The same amount of variation which was at present tolerated between the Board of Trade standard and the secondary standards ought clearly to be sanctioned between the secondary standard and the weights and measures used by dealers throughout the country. He would also suggest that the Government should enforce the publication of the names of persons convicted, with the particulars of their offence. In almost all cases no publication was made either of the names of the persons convicted or of the circumstances of the conviction. There was no knowing whether weights were a drachm or an ounce too light, or whether, as in some cases, they were too heavy. It would certainly benefit the honest trader if, in every instance, it were obligatory on the tribunal imposing the penalty to publish the circumstances of the case; and some system might also be devised under which a mark should be fixed on the shops of all deliberate offenders. If these points were attended to he thought the Government might easily frame a measure which would protect the public and the honest tradesman. At present the only persons who profited by the law and the way it was carried out were the dishonest tradesmen. he hoped the Government would consider the question in the Recess.

§ MR. STEPHEN CAVE
apologized for not being prepared to answer the question fully. Having been very unwell for the last two days, he had not been able to attend the House, and had in fact seen the Notice for the first time, only a few minutes before. Part of the question, moreover, properly belonged to the Home Office. The law, with regard to penalties, had been altered in many respects; but it had been found by experience that it often slumbered, in consequence of there being no inducement to anybody to enforce it. What was everybody's business was nobody's business, and the evil had been felt in regard to overcrowding themselves, of which so many complaints had been heard. Those, however, who complained of the operation of the law had the remedy in their own hands, because if they used genuine weights and measures they would not be exposed to its operation at all. It always struck him as a very remarkable circumstance that the poor, who were chiefly fleeced by the rascality of the small tradesmen, were yet the very persons to stand up for these offenders against the law which would protect them from their misdoing. As long as such a state of feeling existed, it was hopeless to attempt to enforce the law. It would be a great thing, of course, if the magistrates kept a register, and if the names of the offenders, and the number of their convictions were published; but in the very neighbourhood where these people lived, and where their offences must be well known, the fact did not deter poor persons from dealing with them. The reason, no doubt, in many cases, was that these poor persons were almost always in debt to the shopkeeper, and were therefore under his hand, and a very hard hand it often proved to be. He was not quite able to follow what had been stated by his hon. Friend about shopkeepers being convicted whose weights were too heavy, and could only suppose that the fine in such cases was imposed because the weights were not properly marked with the Government stamp, but had been bought unstamped from some private makers. The variations in the standards to which his hon. Friend had referred was one which it was perfectly impossible to express in terms, and was merely an allowance for the effect of the 1928 atmosphere upon the different kinds of metal of which these weights were made. Re-verification from time to time was undoubtedly advantageous, but complaints had been already made both from counties and boroughs of the cost of this proceeding, and more frequent re-verification would, of course, necessitate an increase of staff. No doubt, in centres of great trade, like the metropolis, such adjustment would be more often required than in other places. He was not sufficiently acquainted with the practice to know exactly what was usual with regard to soldering, but in the event of a slight addition being required to a weight soldering would probably be the cheapest way of making it. He entirely concurred with his hon. Friend in the desire which had been expressed for some sign to be placed over the shops of defaulters. In France this was constantly done. When a man was convicted of using false weights he was not only fined for it, but in addition was obliged to have constructed at his own expense a kind of tablet giving the fact of the conviction, the reason for it, and how much, he was fined; and this he was required to expose in his shop for a certain number of days, weeks, or months, and a policeman called every day to see that it was fixed in some conspicuous place. This might be a proceeding too strong for this country, but if something of a similar kind existed here, in practice it would no doubt prove very beneficial. The different points mentioned by his hon. Friend should be carefully inquired into at the next meeting of the Standards Commission.

§ MR. SEBJEANT GASELEE
said, that his hon. Friend the Member for Lambeth (Mr. T. Hughes), considering the borough which he represented, had stated the case very fairly. But if 1,200 persons had been convicted it was quite plain that there were 12,000 who deserved conviction. The law as it stood now was much too lenient towards rogues. He was a director of a large company, which suffered every day from the rascality of the public. Hitherto they had been in the habit of posting up the names of the persons by whom they were so defrauded; but it had recently been laid down that in doing so railway companies would be guilty of a libel. As the use of false weights was really a dreadful offence he thought it would be better, instead of marking the shop, from which the tradesman might 1929 remove, to brand the man himself. A practice existed of giving short weight to the poor, which was exceedingly difficult to detect—namely, that of putting a piece of lead, or something heavy, in the scales, and taking it out again after the article; was served. For his part he should wish such rogues to be branded with the letter f "R" in their forehead.

COLONEL SYKES
said, he hoped that' the time was not far distant when the; Continental system would be introduced; into this contry.