HC Deb 14 July 1868 vol 193 cc1201-13

(In the Committee.)

(1.) £35,609, to complete the sum for the Treasury.

(2.) Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding £28,000, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1869, for Her Majesty's Foreign and other Secret Services.

MR. ALDERMAN LUSK

said, that this Vote had gone unchallenged since he had the honour of a scat in that House. In this country it was part of our creed that public matters should be discussed in the light of day. Open doors and full newspaper reports were advocated as necessary to political health, and he could not understand why there should be a Vote of this kind. He had been informed that part of the money asked was not for the purest objects, and unless the hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Treasury could assure him that none of this money went for base and corrupt political purposes, he should move that the Vote be reduced by £10,000.

Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding £18,000, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1869, for Her Majesty's Foreign and other Secret Services."—(Mr. Lusk.)

SIR JOHN GRAY

agreed that the Committee ought to know what was done with this secret service money. It might, for all they knew, be employed for base purposes, as in the payment of informers and spies. If they were told what the secret service money was wanted for they would vote it freely.

MR. SCLATER-BOOTH

said, it was obvious that no detailed explanation could be given of the destination of secret service money. It had been the practice of the House for many years to entrust the Government with the distribution of this sum, no part of which went in "base or political purposes." Almost the whole of the amount was disbursed by the Foreign Office, and none of it went to the Treasury.

MR. ALDERMAN SALOMONS

said, he hoped that the explanation would be satisfactory to the worthy Alderman (Mr. Alderman Lusk).

MR. ALDERMAN LUSK

said, it was hardly so explicit and to the purpose as he could have wished; but, under the circumstances, he would not press his objection.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

Original Question put, and agreed to.

(3.) £56,410, to complete the sum for Home Office.

MR. CHILDERS

said, there was an understanding that the expenses of the Fisheries Commission should not be increased, and he therefore regretted to see an addition of five persons connected with the Commission.

MR. ALDERMAN LUSK

said, there was an increase of £5,600 in this Vote. There was now no need for some of the Inspectors, as the Act under which several were appointed in Scotland had been done away with.

MR. NEATE

said, he could not understand how the travelling expenses of the Inspectors were always the same fixed sum. Was it done by contract?

GENERAL DUNNE

wished to know when the present system would cease?

MR. WALDEGRAVE-LESLIE

said, he thought the fees to surgeons in the Factory Department, which had increased from £1,550 to £2,000, ought to be paid by the factory owners themselves, and not by the Government. The salaries of the Local Government Act Office had increased by £1,000. He thought that fees to cover the expenses of this Office ought to be charged to those towns which employed its agency.

MR. GATHORNE HARDY

said, there, had been a considerable increase in the number of Inspectors of late years, and if the House passed Acts which required Inspectors to carry them out, they must not be surprised if this Vote showed an increase. The Fisheries Commission was being wound up, and an additional Commissioner was appointed to bring the matter to a conclusion. Those in Scotland were paid so much a day while actually employed. The fees paid to certifying surgeons under the Factory Acts were for examining children to see that they were of age to be employed, and the House could not expect this expense to be paid by the factory owners.

Vote agreed to.

(4.) £52,453, to complete the sum for Foreign Office.

MR. ALDERMAN LUSK

asked for an explanation of the increased number of clerks employed, and the large augmentation of this Vote year after year.

MR. SCLATER-BOOTH

stated that the arranging of a large accumulation of papers in the Library had necessitated a temporary increase.

MR. NEATE

wished to know who were employed in making the translations, which were often very slovenly and incorrect?

COLONEL SYKES

said, he thought there was mystification in these accounts. Items were bandied about from one Department to another, and it was impossible to detect where the items of the net increase were to be found.

MR. SCLATER-BOOTH

said, he thought the hon. and gallant Gentleman should not object to the introduction of a better classification. He presumed that all the clerks in the Foreign Office were acquainted with modern languages, and were therefore intrusted with translations.

COLONEL SYKES

said, he objected, not to an improved classification, but to constant alterations.

Vote agreed to.

(5.) £19,990, to complete the sum for Colonial Office.

(6.) £65,725, to complete the sum for Board of Trade.

MR. ALDERMAN LUSK

remarked that the expenses of this Department were continually increasing. He thought that some of those Inspectors who were considered necessary to be employed to look after different branches of trade should be paid by those for whose benefit they were appointed.

SIR J. CLARKE JERVOISE inquired as to the Inspectors of limejuice, whose payment was included in the Vote?

MR. CHILDERS

, with reference to an increase in the number of temporary clerks from fifty-one to sixty, and of the junior clerks from twenty-four to thirty-one, suggested that temporary and supplementary clerks should be abolished, and that persons of the class of writer should be employed whose numbers might vary with the amount of business which had to be got through.

MR. WALDEGRAVE-LESLIE

thought that, instead of employing sixty temporary clerks, persons who had been superseded and pensioned for reasons difficult to understand might be utilized. He was surprised that more notice had not been taken of the large number of able-bodied officials of the Board of Trade, who had been pensioned off at large retiring allowances, to make room for new appointments.

MR. HEYGATE inquired whether the present system of collecting agricultural statistics was to be continued, or whether a better had been devised?

MR. READ

remarked that the expense of these statistics had increased by £4,500. In 1866 the sum was £10,000 for two Returns; whereas it was now £14,500: last year it was £18,000, and only one Return was collected.

COLONEL SYKES

said, the hon. Member (Mr. Read) was mistaken, there being a decrease and not an increase of £4,500. He believed these statistics would prove of very great value as the system became better organized, and the prejudices of the agriculturists disappeared.

MR. STEPHEN CAVE

stated, in answer to the remarks of his hon. Friend opposite (Mr. Childers), that supplementary clerks were extinct as a class, there being only a few left, and no others being appointed. The temporary clerks were exactly the class whose employment his hon. Friend had suggested, they being taken on when wanted on weekly wages, and discharged when the occasion for their services ceased. This was a better plan than the employment of law stationers' clerks, who were often of a class which rendered it undesirable that they should mix with the other clerks. The hon. Member for Finsbury (Mr. Alderman Lusk) had noticed the increasing expenses of the Board; but he must be aware that the increase had been caused by various Votes of the House, imposing upon the Board many duties which they were by no means anxious to undertake, and this accounted for the augmented number of junior clerks. Inspection of gas companies had been thrown on the Board of Trade, and next year his hon. Friend would see an increase of charge on that account. The inspection of lime juice also was one of those things which had been forced upon the Department. Medical officers had declared that lime juice was the proper preventative against scurvy. The Government knew, however, that the juice which had hitherto been served out to merchant vessels was very bad. It was, in fact, not lime juice at all, but was composed of nitric instead of citric acid. The country demanded that remedies should he taken against the scurvy, lime juice was the best remedy, and therefore the Government were compelled to appoint an inspector of that juice. Then there was an inspection of oyster fisheries and also of cables and anchors, both of which measures were carried in that House against the wish of the late Government, and he feared he was himself instrumental in carrying them. And so it was, hon. Gentlemen in the beginning of the year perhaps urged the Government to undertake such and such a duty, and afterwards when they saw the Estimates complained of increase of charge. But new duties could not be undertaken by any Department without entailing additional expense. With regard to the inspection of ships he had to say that he had always resisted the movement in that direction, because he believed it would add enormously to the Votes. The same remark applied to training ships and sailors' homes. As an instance of the kind of pressure to which the Board of Trade was subjected he might mention that only that very day he had received a deputation, urging upon his Department to undertake the responsibility of seeing that railways were possessed of proper stations and level crossings. With regard to what had been said about superannuation, it should be borne in mind that there was a tendency to hare senior clerks, who from various circumstances were not quite capable of performing their duties. He agreed with the hon. Member for Pontefract (Mr. Childers) that the system of competitive examination, though very had as regarded the lowest class, would do away with much of the evil to which he bad referred. There were some cases, however, in which it was better to get rid of a man by giving him a retiring allowance than to continue him in office. With regard to agricultural statistics he might express the hope that they were year by year becoming more and more correct. He trusted they would become still more accurate. They were practically becoming less expensive so far as collection was concerned, and would in time work more smoothly than at present. He believed that many of the higher classes and of the landlords themselves had need of education on the subject. It was only the other day that he got a letter from a gentleman of high position, who, in answer to a circular asking for agricultural statistics, declined to give them, alleging that this was a legacy which the present Government had inherited from the inquisitorial Whigs. He had answered all the questions that had been put to him, and had only to say, in conclusion, that the heads of Departments were all most anxious to economize as much as possible.

MR. READ inquired whether it was the intention of the Government at any future time to have horses included in the Returns?

MR. STEPHEN CAVE

said, he agreed with his hon. Friend that the number of horses in the country would be an extremely valuable addition to the Returns; but as the Returns were entirely voluntary, they must wait for a short time before they could ask people to make any addition to them.

MR. WALDEGRAVE-LESLIE

wished to know in what part of the United Kingdom the foreshores were situated which were alluded to in the blue book? Where they in Scotland or in the South of England?

MR. STEPHEN CAVE

said, he could not answer the question. Applications were constantly being made to the Board of Trade to arrange disputes with regard to foreshores in various parts of the kingdom.

MR. HEYGATE

said, he thought the answer of the right hon. Gentleman, with regard to agricultural statistics, was satisfactory. He hoped the experiment would be persevered in.

Vote agreed to.

(7.) Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding £3,176, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1869, for the Salaries of the Officers and Attendants of the Household of the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland and other Expenses.

COLONEL FRENCH

bore his testimony to the admirable manner in which the present Lord Lieutenant of Ireland discharged the duties of his Office, and expressed his belief that an addition should be made to his allowance. In case of a change of Government, no future Viceroy would be likely to maintain the dignity of the Office with the splendour with which it had been maintained by Lord Abercorn on the sum now allowed.

MR. DISRAELI

said, that the Committee should not contemplate anything so distressing as the retirement of Lord Abercorn from his present Office; and he; thought that the hon., and gallant Gentleman had proved that it was not in the interest of the Government to increase the salary of the Lord Lieutenant.

MR. ALDERMAN LUSK moved the omission from the Vote of the sum of £1,574, appropriated to "Queen's Plates" in Ireland. He saw no reason why the State should contribute to the maintenance of racing and modern racing practices. If gentlemen wished to hunt or to run racehorses they might do so, but should not ask the public to pay for prizes for such questionable objects as the latter. Modern racing had degenerated into something like the lowest description of trading; and when they saw, as they might do by a reference to the public prints and to police Courts, that many of high and low position in society were ruined by following such pursuits, he strongly protested against the House being a party to these proceedings.

Motion made, and Question proposed, That the Item of £1,574 6s. 2d. for Queen's Plates to be run for in Ireland, be omitted from the proposed vote."—(Mr. Lusk.)

COLONEL FRENCH

said, the hon. Member had never succeeded in reducing any Vote, often as he had attempted to do so. This question had been so often discussed that it was not worth while to debate it now. He felt surprised at finding an Alderman of the City of London, the Corporation of which had always been so strongly supported in that House by the Irish party, opposing a grant of that description. It should be remembered that a much larger sum was contributed from the Civil List to racing purposes in this country. In London when a mob levelled the Park railings they were replaced at the public expense, and it was hard to object to an item of this kind affecting Ireland. The hon. Member ought not to break the contract between the Irish Members and the Liberal party on so trifling a Vote.

THE O'CONOR DON

said, he wished to know on what principle the Plates were allocated. If the object were the improvement of the breed of horses, the Plates ought not to be given to one locality only, but ought to be distributed to various parts of the country.

GENERAL DUNNE

also thought the Plates should be more fairly divided.

THE EARL OF MAYO

said, that the races and the conditions under which they were run were regulated by Her Majesty's Master of the Horse, who was quite ready to attend to any suggestion. The conditions under which the Queen's Plates were to be run for in future had been altered recently, with the view of promoting improvement in the breed of horses. He was sure that the representations of those who were most interested would be readily attended to; but he believed the general opinion was that the running for the Plates was most useful at the Curragh, because more horses were trained there than anywhere else. The hon. Member for Fins-bury (Mr. Alderman Lusk) had referred to facts which everybody must deplore; but the Irish turf was entirely free from the scandals alluded to.

COLONEL SYKES

wished to know what were the duties of the Gentlemen-at-Large?

THE EARL OF MAYO

said, a Viceroy must have a Household, and it could hardly be said that the Lord Lieutenant was over-supplied with attendants.

MR. ALDERMAN LUSK

said, he would this Session withdraw his Motion.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

Original Question put, and agreed to.

(8.) £14,927, to complete the sum for Chief Secretary, Ireland, Offices.

(9.) £12,646, to complete the sum for Paymaster General's Office.

(10.) £4,136, to complete the sum for Queen's and Lord Treasurer's Remembrancer, &c.

(11.) £22,700, to complete the sum for Commissioners of Her Majesty's Works, England.

MR. ALDERMAN LAWRENCE

asked why the property connected with metropolitan improvements made under the direction of this Department had not been sold, and the accounts completed?

MR. WALDEGRAVE- LESLIE

observed that during the time the First Commissioner of Works had been in Office no Royal Arms were allowed to be put on the metropolitan or provincial branches of the Post Office. He hoped the noble Lord would inquire into the matter. As the noble Lord was a member of the Constitutional party, this conduct must be very painful to his feelings.

Vote agreed to.

(12.) £17,546, to complete the sum for Board of Works, Ireland.

(13.) £36,354, to complete the sum for House of Commons' Offices.

(14.) £28,585, to complete the sum for Privy Council Office.

(15.) £1,918, to complete the sum for Privy Seal Office.

(16.) £6,407, to complete the sum for Civil Service Commission.

(17.) £25,500, to complete the sum for Exchequer and Audit Department.

(18.) 16,958, to complete the sum for Office of Woods, Forests, and Land Revenues, &c.

MR. ALDERMAN LAWRENCE

complained that all the charges were not inserted in the account, and asked for an explanation. He also called attention to the fact that the road through Kensington Palace Gardens to Bayswater was closed to public cabs, notwithstanding that to a great extent it was maintained out of the public funds.

MR. SCLATER-BOOTH

said, that the accounts furnished to the Treasury by the Office of Woods were net accounts, after making certain deductions. They were accounts such as would be furnished by an owner of an estate, after making various allowances. The Woods and Forests had no option in the matter of the road referred to; but he would make inquiries on the subject.

SIR JOHN GRAY

thought that the closing of the road against the public was a very questionable proceeding.

Vote agreed to.

(19.) £14,926, to complete the sum for Public Record Office.

(20) £140,183, to complete the sum for Poor Law Commission.

(21.) £30,820, to complete the sum for Mint.

(22.) £13,294, to complete the sum for Copyhold Inclosure and Tithe Commission.

(23.) £7,200, to complete the sum for Inclosure and Drainage Acts; Imprest Expenses.

(24.) £27,961, to complete the sum for General Register Office.

(25.) £11,132, to complete the sum for National Debt Office.

(26.) £3,429, to complete the sum for Public Works Loan Commission, &c.

(27.) £2,820, to complete the sum for Lunacy Commission.

(28.) £1,449, to complete the sum for Registrars of Friendly Societies.

(29.) £12,438, to complete the sum for Charity Commission.

(30.) £19,071, to complete the sum for Patent Office. &c.

(31.) £215,909, to complete the sum for Printing and Stationery.

(32.) £11,867, to complete the sum for Poor Law Commission, Scotland.

(33.) £4,608, to complete the sum for General Register Office, Scotland.

(34.) £3,206, to complete the sum for Lunacy Commission, Scotland.

(35.) £9,223, to complete the sum for Fishery Board, Scotland.

(36.) £2,296, to complete the sum for Public Record Office, Ireland.

(37.) £63,267, to complete the sum for Poor Law Commission, Ireland.

(38.) £14,722, to complete the sum for General Registrar Office, &c. Ireland.

(39.) £250, Boundary Survey, Ireland.

(40.) £1,188, to complete the sum for Charitable Donations and Bequests, Ireland.

Re-committed. Resolution, reported this day, read, as followeth:— That a sum, not exceeding £42,079, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Expenses of Greenwich Hospital and Schools, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1869.

Whereupon—

(41.) Resolved, That a sum, not exceeding £127,600, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Expenses of Greenwich Hospital and Schools, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1869.

(42.) Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding £20,000, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March I869, for the Compensation granted to the Portpatrick Railway Company in consequence of the Abandonment of Mail Communication between Donaghadee and Portpatrick.

MR. NEATE moved that the Chairman report Progress, as they had now come to the Supplementary Estimates, and the House had received no information upon them.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."—(Mr. Neate.)

MR. SCLATER-BOOTH

said, this subject had been discussed, and the Vote had met with the approval of the House.

MR. CANDLISH

said, there were only three or four more Votes to complete the Estimates for the year, and they ought to finish the Supply tonight.

MR. DISRAELI

reminded the House they had only sat since nine o'clock. Time was now very valuable, and he wished to get through Supply tonight that they might proceed on Thursday morning with the Corrupt Practices Bill.

CAPTAIN VIVIAN

observed that there was likely to be a discussion on a postponed Army Vote.

MR. DISRAELI

said, that the Government were ready to take the discussion that night. If it did not come on now, it must take precedence of the Corrupt Practices Bill on Thursday.

SIR JOHN PAKINGTON

said, that he had postponed the Army Vote in order that a Paper which he had presented might be printed. The Paper was not yet in the hands of Members; but he hoped the House would be content to pass the Vote.

COLONEL JERVIS

said, that they had been waiting for months for this particular Paper, and without it they could not determine whether the Report of the Select Committee or the proposal of the right hon. Gentleman in respect to a certain scheme of retirement should he considered.

SIR JOHN PAKINGTON

said, that the hon. and gallant Member laboured under a complete misapprehension. The House had never waited for the Paper, which he only mentioned a few days ago. The Paper contained no scheme of any reform, nor had he any scheme to propose.

COLONEL JERVIS

stated that for months the hon. Member for Pontefract (Mr. Childers) refrained from pressing this question because it was clearly understood that the War Office had a scheme to propose.

MR. CHILDERS

observed that the right hon. Baronet had on two occasions stated that he was preparing a scheme, and he, in consequence, asked for the production of the Paper in connection with it.

SIR JOHN PAKINGTON

said, he had never made any promise to produce any scheme. The Report to be produced was simply that of the actuaries on the scheme of the Committee.

MR. CHILDERS

said, he had no intention to charge his right hon. Friend with any breach of faith. It was quite clear if there was to be any discussion on this subject, it could not be tonight.

MR. ALDERMAN LUSK

said, he trusted they would be allowed to pass the two additional Votes on the Paper, and thus facilitate Business.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

Original Question put, and agreed to.

(43.) £7,500, Compensation, Explosion at Clerkenwell.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

explained that the sum collected in local subscriptions had been expended in providing medicines and sustenance for the sufferers during the time they were incapacitated for work, and in the case of those permanently injured towards providing them with pensions to insure them against dependence on parochial relief. In some cases, also, it had been applied in the purchase of tools to workmen where their tools had been destroyed. Certain furniture also had been provided out of the fund. The voluntary efforts of that Committee bad been of great assistance to the sufferers, and the benevolent persons engaged were deserving of every commendation for their admirable exertions. The Committee had represented to the Government that they were entirely unable to give compensation to those whose property had been destroyed. Some of the parties had been advised that they had a remedy against the Hundred as in the case of a riot; but that had been tried, and it was decided that the diabolical proceeding was not in the nature of a riot, but an attempt to rescue from prison a prisoner who had committed an offence against the State. Under these circumstances it was thought the Government ought to make some compensation to those who had suffered by the destruction of their property. They had therefore sent a proper person to make inquiry, and, although they had not yet got a detailed Report, it was believed the sum now taken would be sufficient for the purpose.

MR. NEATE

said, he thought the Treasury occupied a most unenviable position in allowing that to be done by private individuals which ought to have been done by the State.

MR. WYLD

eulogized the charitable and public-spirited efforts made by the Prime Minister at the time of the explosion to assuage the sufferings of those who were wounded by the explosion, and men- tioned that a deputation had called on him to-day to request him to state to the House how highly the inhabitants of the neighbourhood approved the spirit thus displayed by the Government.

MR. ALDERMAN LUSK

also thanked the Government and the House for the generous manner in which they had rendered aid to some of his constituents who were innocent victims of this deplorable and wicked piece of madness.

Vote agreed to.

(44.) £10,000, Registration Expenses.

Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding £389,800, be granted to Her Majesty (in addition to the sum of £81,000 already voted on account), towards defraying the Charge for Full Pay of Reduced and Retired Officers, and Half Pay, which will come in course of payment from the first day of April 1868 to the 31st day of March 1869, inclusive.

COLONEL JERVIS moved that Progress be reported.

MR. DISRAELI

expressed a hope that they should he able to dispose of this Vote on Thursday, as well as of the Corrupt Practices at Elections Bill.

Motion made, and Question, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again,—(Colonel Jervis,)—put, and greed to.

House resumed.

Resolutions to be reported To-morrow; Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.