HC Deb 14 February 1867 vol 185 cc337-40
LORD ROBERT MONTAGU

asked Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Whether the Government will endeavour, as early as possible in this Session, to bring in a Bill which will carry out whatever Resolutions may be passed by the Committee on the Act 2 & 3 Will. IV. c. 45?

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

I observe that there is upon the paper another Question, of which notice has been given by the hon. Member for Nottingham (Mr. Osborne), referring to the same subject—namely— To ask if Her Majesty's Government will inform the House what is the exact amount of reduction contemplated 'in the value of the qualifying Tenement in counties and Boroughs;' also the description of 'other Franchises not dependent on such value,' as mentioned in Reform Resolution No. 2, and perhaps, with the indulgence of the House, it will be more convenient that I should answer both these Questions at once. The inquiry of the hon. Member for Nottingham, to which I shall presently refer, is caused by a misconception of the object of the Government in proceeding with the Resolutions of which I have given notice for the 25th of this month. I am ready to take on myself all blame for any misconception that may have arisen in his mind on the subject. The main object in introducing these Resolutions was that we should obtain the sanction of the House to the principles upon which the Bill, which we hope we may introduce into Parliament on Parliamentary Reform, shall be based. Our object in having recourse to such a mode of procedure was to prevent the Bill which we might bring in from being met with some Resolution of censure and condemnation, founded probably on an attack against some particular principle contained in it. Under these circumstances, I need not perhaps inform the hon. Gentleman that I am not prepared at the present moment to enter into any details of the Resolutions to which he has referred, and which express the principles on which we wish to act. In case these Resolutions of which we have given notice are passed, we shall be prepared at once to introduce a Bill founded on them; but I wish the House to clearly understand that our object in bringing forward these Resolutions was merely to come to some general understanding with the House as to the principles on which the Bill, which we hope we may almost immediately introduce, is to be founded, and that therefore we do not contemplate entering into the details to which the hon. Gentleman the Member for Nottingham referred. We look upon the application of the principles embodied in the Resolutions as being part of the responsibility of Government; nor can we expect—I can hardly say we should desire—on the occasion of our moving the Resolutions, that the House should feel it necessary to originate itself any opinion on this point. All we can say is, we are perfectly prepared, if the House wishes to enter into a discussion upon the Resolutions in that manner, to meet them; but what we should prefer is that the principles involved in the Resolutions should be sanctioned, if they are to be sanctioned, by this House, and that we should be permitted in consequence immediately afterwards, or at the earliest convenient moment, to introduce in a legislative form the adaptation of those principles to the business which is before us. That, also, would be my answer to the Question put by my noble Friend, who wishes to know whether, if the House, in general Committee, passes certain Resolutions on the subject of Parliamentary Reform, we shall in good time be prepared to act upon them by presenting a Bill? I can only assure my noble Friend that the moment the Resolutions are passed not a moment will be unnecessarily lost. I should consider that to invite the House to discuss Resolutions upon a subject of this paramount importance, and, in the event of their being adopted, not to be prepared immediately to act upon them, would be disgracefully trifling with the House of Commons.

LORD ROBERT MONTAGU

The right hon. Gentleman has misunderstood my Question. I did not ask him whether he intended to bring in a Bill to carry out the Resolutions of which he has given notice; but whether he honestly and sincerely desired to gather the opinion and wishes of the House and bring in a Bill to embody those wishes as expressed by the Resolutions of the Committee. I wish not to be told he will bring in a Bill to carry out a certain foregone conclusion of the Government; but whether he will bring in a Bill to carry out the wishes of the House. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will give an answer to my Question, as it may make a serious difference in the votes to be calculated on.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

I do not clearly understand the object of the noble Lord's second inquiry. I take it for granted that everybody who acts in this House is honest and sincere. As long as the Government conduct the Committee in which the Resolutions are moved, of course it will be their duty to act upon those Resolutions, whether they propose them or private Members propose them. I hope we may reserve to ourselves the privilege of free men, and that if Resolutions are adopted which we cannot carry out, we may decline to do so, and not follow what appears to be the object of my noble Friend—namely, act upon Resolutions which we do not approve. To that I cannot agree. I must repeat again, in the most distinct manner, that we brought forward these Resolutions as the basis of a Bill. We thought it was the only mode by which we could attempt to legislate with any satisfaction. We do not suppose that in passing them we are passing our Reform Bill. The Reform Bill must depend upon its merits. What we supposed was that by this means we should obtain for our measure a fair hearing.

MR. OSBORNE

Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will be able distinctly to state when he will be able to name the exact figure at which he proposes to fix the franchise.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

I must apologize to the House for troubling there so often. I at once say that if the hon. Member and his Friends will agree to the Resolution which will be placed in the hands of the Chairman—namely, that the qualification for the franchise shall be lowered, I shall, supported by that principle, which the House will have accepted, take the earliest opportunity of entering, in a Bill, into all the details. I think, if the House will consent to that mode of proceeding, there is no reason why there should be any delay in bringing in the Bill. It may be brought in immediately the Resolutions are passed. Therefore, we are not courting delay. The hon. Gentleman has inquired of me what are the particular new franchises we intend to propose, and what the re-adjustment of the old franchises. But though they are important considerations, these are really matters of detail for the Committee, and it is only in Committee we can satisfactorily settle them. If on these Resolutions we go into a discussion of all the minute points of that character that can arise out of the Resolutions, I must frankly confess the expectation of Her Majesty's Ministers in regard to the early introduction of a Bill will be much disappointed.