§ MR. NEWDEGATE, who had given notice, said he would not persist in the Motion on this subject, which he had intended to make, inasmuch as it was included in that of which the hon. Member for Southwark (Mr. Layard) had given notice.
§ MR. LAYARDsaid, it was with very deep regret that he felt it his duty to detain the House for a short time. He had already had occasion to mention that a very unusual course had been pursued in preparing the blue book on Abyssinia, which had been recently laid upon the table. In that blue book, letters which had appeared in the public papers containing reflections of a calumnious character had been reprinted on the authority of the noble Lord at the head of the Foreign Office, and, consequently, had gained from that authority an importance which would not have attached to them as mere newspaper correpondence. He more particularly referred to a letter from Dr. Beke to the Earl of Clarendon, dated June 11, 1866, which had been reproduced in the blue book, and contained reflections of a very calumnious nature upon himself and others. Why that letter had been published he did not know, for no explanation whatever had been given on the subject. The noble Lord said that evening that there had been a quarrel between certain persons—referring, he presumed, to himself (Mr. Layard) as one of the parties. But there had been no quarrel at all on his part. He had never taken notice of any communications from Dr. Beke, whether to the newspapers or otherwise, as long as those communications did not receive the sanction of the Foreign Office by publication. But the case was entirely altered by the degree of solemnity which was given to them by their publication in the blue book, and he felt that he owed it to himself to bring the matter before the House; 669 especially after what had passed during the last week. The House would allow him to read part of this letter of Dr. Beke to the Earl of Clarendon. Dr. Beke said—
On my arrival in Alexandria last November, I heard openly repeated, in the presence of several English gentlemen (some of whom I believe to be now in England), matters affecting the personal character of two gentlemen who have unfortunately been named in connection with the subject, of which matters Mr. Palgrave was said to be the promulgator. …… With Mr. Palgrave's statements to me your Lordship has been made acquainted. Those relating to the two gentlemen alluded to were little more than an amplification of what I had previously heard in Alexandria. I therefore owe no apology to any one for repeating what was common talk in Egypt before my arrival in that country; but I do owe it to myself to say that I should not have condescended to advert to such a subject in my correspondence with Mr. Purday had it not been for the apprehension (entertained by others as well as myself) that the alleged ill-feeling towards Mr. Stern, on account of what had occurred in Mesopotamia, might have been carried over into Abyssinia.He then said that he had heard that Mr. Palgrave's instructions were to ask for the liberation of Consul Cameron alone, and that Mr. Stern was to be neglected because he (Mr. Layard) had a quarrel with him. This was a most serious charge; but he should have taken no notice of it had it not appeared in the blue book. That letter contained accusations against his personal character which were really so shocking and so odious that he would not venture to repeat them in public. There were also accusations against Mr. Rassam of a description which he could not do more than allude to. There were likewise distinct accusations against Mr. Palgrave's character as a gentleman and a public servant. He had ventured the other evening to refer to and refute the charges which had been made against Mr. Rassam; but he should have taken no further notice of the accusations against himself had they not appeared in an official form, and had he not been challenged by the hon. Member for North Warwickshire (Mr. Newdegate) to move for the production of the correspondence. That challenge he could not but accept, though he did so with regret, not on his own account, but on account of Dr. Beke, whom the publication was calculated to injure. Those letters had been characterized by the noble Lord (Lord Stanley) as they deserved, and if they appeared publicly, it would be only Dr. Beke's character that would suffer. When, however, the noble Lord expressed his willingness 670 to produce the papers on condition of omitting all that related to other persons, and giving only what related to himself, he could not for a moment agree to so unfair a proceeding. As regarded his personal character, indeed, he was quite willing to leave that to the public, for he trusted his reputation would not suffer from any accusation of this kind; but, in order to justify his conduct in the eyes of the House, it was of the utmost importance that it should be shown that Dr. Beke had made similar accusations against other persons—for instance, against Mr. Palgrave—every one of which accusations that gentleman characterized—he was sorry to have to quote the expression—as a "malicious lie." He trusted that the noble Lord, after what had happened in the House, would produce the whole correspondence, as this was only just and fair. If he refused all he could say was that he had done his best, and had invited the fullest publicity, in order to put himself right and justify what he said the other evening. If the whole was given, he should willingly accept it; but he thought the House would see that he was justified in objecting to a partial publication.
§
Motion made, and Question proposed,
That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, that She will be graciously pleased to give directions that there be laid before this House a Copy of the Correspondence between Dr. Beke, Mr. Purday, Mr. Palgrave, and the Foreign Office, referred to in the Letter from Dr. Beke to Lord Clarendon, dated the 11th day of June 1866, published in a recent Blue Book.—(Mr. Layard.)
LORD STANLEYI am sure the House will understand that in the personal part of this question the present Government are entirely disinterested. With regard to Dr. Beke, I have only seen him two or three times. I never saw him before I acceded to my present office, and I have no personal connection with him. I am not in the slightest degree his partizan, nor have I any wish to take his part in the matter. As to the insertion in the blue book of the despatch of which the hon. Member for Southwark (Mr. Layard) complains, the difficulty I felt as to excluding it was this—it formed a part of that series of transactions which has necessarily come under the notice of the House. When a personal and a public question are mixed up it is difficult to decide what to put in and what to leave out. Only three courses are practicable. If you sup- 671 press the whole correspondence because it has a personal and offensive tendency, you expose yourself to the charge of keeping back what it is material on public grounds the House should know. If you include a part only, you lay yourself open with equal plausibility to the charge of garbling the correspondence and producing only what serves your purpose. If, again, you publish the whole, you leave no room for accusations of that kind, but you give publicity to many things which it would be much better in the public interests to leave out. As to the appeal which the hon. Gentleman has made to me, my wish was to produce anything which was necessary to his defence against any personal attack, but not to publish more of these personal matters than was necessary for that purpose. At the same time, I cannot deny the force of the hon. Gentleman's argument that if accusations were made against him, and are also made by the same person against other individuals, the credibility of one set of accusations is very much affected by the credibility of any other set. On the whole—though I confess that on public grounds I feel some regret—I am bound to say that after the personal appeal of the hon. Member there is no option on my part but to publish the whole correspondence. I need hardly say that as far as the present Government are concerned they can have no motive for suppressing anything whatever.
§ MR. NEWDEGATEsaid, that that being the noble Lord's conclusion, he rose to move, as a rider to the hon. Gentleman's proposition, for the production of portion of a letter addressed by Dr. Beke to the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, dated the 14th day of October, 1867, relative to a conversation between him and Mr. Palgrave, at Cairo, in December, 1865. He was sure the House would believe that he would be the last man to thrust upon it documents which, as the hon. Gentleman's description of them had shown, were unfit for publication. ["Oh!"] There was no other interpretation to be placed upon his words. But though he (Mr. Newdegate) had not seen the letter for which he now moved, he knew there were parts of it which, in justice to Dr. Beke, it was essential to produce, if the Motion of the hon. Member for Southwark were acceded to. The hon. Gentleman (Mr. Layard) had said that there was no ill-feeling on his part or on Mr. Rassam's 672 towards Mr. Stern. Now, the hon. Gentleman's memory must surely have failed him, for he held in his hand a letter from Mr. Purday, brother of Mrs. Stern, which showed that the hon. Member had impressed Mr. and Mrs. Stern with the feeling that he was actuated by hostile feelings towards them. [Mr. LAYARD: Oh!] The hon. Member must excuse him; but after the remarks he had offered it was necessary that he should read a portion of the letter. [Mr. LAYARD: What is the date of it?] It was dated the 17th of January, 1866, and was addressed by Mr. C. H. Purday, from 24, Great Marlborough Street, to Mr. Stern. The hon. Member read a passage from the letter, to the effect that Mr. Stern knew both Mr. Layard and Mr. Rassam at Mossul; that a remonstrance he offered on some matter led to an open rupture with them; that on Mr. Stern seeing Mr. Layard some time afterwards, the latter behaved in a very disagreeable way, and that there was an old grudge on Mr. Layard's part against Mr. Stern. This letter proved that Mr. and Mrs. Stern were impressed with the opinion that the hon. Member did not feel kindly and had not acted kindly towards them. His sincere wish was that the hon. Gentleman would withdraw his Motion; but unless he did so, he (Mr. Newdegate) was bound, injustice to Dr. Beke, to press his Amendment. He would not, however, be a party to the production of anything which it was unbecoming to produce.
§
Amendment proposed,
At the end of the Question, to add the words "and such portions of a Letter, addressed by Dr. Beke to the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, dated the 14th day of October 1867, relative to a conversation between him and Mr. Palgrave at Cairo, in December 1865, as bear upon the foregoing Correspondence."—(Mr. Newdegate.)
§ MR. LAYARDsaid, this was only an instance of the manner in which this miserable question had arisen. In the first place, he had never met with Mr. Palgrave in his life until he saw him for the first time three years ago in this country, and it is a pure invention that I met him at Mossul. That he ever had the slightest difference with Mr. Stern was also a pure invention. He knew him as a missionary at Bagdad, but he knew very little of him; and it was absurd to suppose that Mr. Stern, a captive, thousands of miles away, could have given 673 Mr. Purday any information on the subject. The whole thing was utterly and completely without foundation. But suppose that he did quarrel with Mr. Stern twenty years ago at Bagdad, did the House imagine that he or any other English gentleman would allow him on that account to be left in captivity? He appealed to the sense of honour and justice of the hon. Member for North Warwickshire. He could not, and he would not, consent to the proposal of the hon. Member opposite that the letters should be mutilated and only those parts produced which suited the purpose of Dr. Beke. In his opinion, either the whole or none of the correspondence should be produced.
LORD STANLEYThe circumstances have altered since the hon. Member for North Warwickshire (Mr. Newdegate) first put his Motion upon the Paper. I then understood that the intention of the hon. Member was merely to ask for such portions of the correspondence as would enable Dr. Beke to vindicate his character from certain charges that had been brought against him. Acting upon that belief, I urged on the hon. Member the propriety of omitting those portions of the correspondence which appeared to convey imputations upon other persons. As the matter now stands, however, the hon. Member opposite (Mr. Layard) having expressed a desire that the whole of the letters should be published, the responsibility would lie upon me were I to withhold any part of them. I regret very much that we should have got into these discussions at all. For my own part, I have never attached the slightest importance to the imputations that have been thrown out against the hon. Member for Southwark. I sincerely hope that the matter will now end, as the whole of the papers will be laid upon the table.
MR. OTWAYobjected altogether to the country being put to the expense of printing and circulating a correspondence like that referred to, merely for the gratification of certain individuals. The whole thing appeared to him to be nothing more than malicious and ill-digested gossip. He objected altogether to the Motion of the hon. Member for North Warwickshire, or that we should mix ourselves up with the quarrels of parties of whom we know nothing, and in whom we have not the slightest interest.
§ MR. NEWDEGATErose to address the House—
§ MR. SPEAKERThe hon. Gentleman has no reply.
§ MR. NEWDEGATEI am aware I have no reply; I rose to explain. When an hon. Member has had words put into his mouth he is usually permitted by the Speaker to correct the misrepresentation. The hon. Member has stated that I did not desire the production of these papers.
§ MR. SPEAKERThe hon. Member (Mr. Newdegate) has moved for these papers, and therefore it is to be presumed that he desires their production. He is out of order in endeavouring to address the House.
§ Question, "That those words be there added," put, and negatived.
§ MR. NEWDEGATENot having spoken upon the original Question, I am now entitled to address the House.
§ MR. SPEAKERThe hon. Member must wait until the original Question is put before he can speak.
§ Original Question again proposed.
§ MR. NEWDEGATEagain rose—
§ MR. SPEAKERThe hon. Member is out of order. Having moved an Amendment upon the original Question, he cannot speak again upon that Question.
§ MR. NEWDEGATEWhat is the Motion before the House?
§ MR. SPEAKERI have just stated what the original Question is. Upon that Question the hon. Member moved an Amendment, which has been negatived, and the House will now therefore proceed to divide on the original Question. In moving the Amendment the hon. Member spoke upon the original Question, and therefore he cannot speak again.
§ MR. NEWDEGATESir, I beg your pardon. I rise on a question of order. During this Session—["Order, order!"]—If the House will permit me for one moment—During this Session you have debated order with me four or five times. If I have transgressed order I can only express my regret, as I never intended to do so. You have on four occasions, when I have brought this subject before the House, interrupted me, and the House has afterwards on those occasions consented to hear me. I do therefore most humbly and most respectfully express a hope that you will show me more consideration hereafter.
§ MR. SPEAKERIt would be very fitting, if the hon. Member thinks he has been improperly interrupted by me, that 675 he should state the occasions of which he complains. I have to state that on the present occasion I have felt myself bound to enforce the Rules of Order with more stringency than is my desire, in consequence of the hon. Member persisting in his desire to speak contrary to the Rules of the House. I have been compelled to state what the Rules of the House are, and that the hon. Member cannot make a second speech upon this Question.
§
Main Question put, and agreed to.
Resolved, That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, that she will be graciously pleased to give directions that there be laid before this House, a Copy of the Correspondence between Dr. Beke, Mr. Purday, Mr. Palgrave, and the Foreign Office, referred to in the Letter from Dr. Beke to Lord Clarendon, dated the 11th day of June 1866, published in a recent Blue Book.
§ House adjourned at Seven o'clock.