COMMITTEE. (Hansard, 10 August 1867)

§ SIR COLMAN O'LOGHLEN
pointed 1301 to the injustice of compelling all the knights to attend the service of the Church of England, the knights being appointed from old officers who may be of any religious persuasion, and moved the following clause:— After the passing of this Act it shall not be obligatory on any Naval Knight of Windsor not being a member of the Established Church of England and Ireland, to attend Divine service in St. George's Chapel, Windsor, daily or at all.

§ COLONEL NORTH
expressed his great gratification at finding that Her Majesty Lad extended to Roman Catholic gentlemen in the army and navy the privileges attached to the Knights of Windsor. It appeared by the statutes which emanated from the Crown relating to those appointments that the knights were exposed to the inconvenience of being obliged to attend the Church service daily, or suffer certain fines in consequence. Whilst supporting the principle contained in the clause moved by the hon. Baronet, he nevertheless thought that it would be much better to leave this concession to be made by Her Majesty herself than to seek to effect the remedy by the introduction of the clause in the Bill. There were, however, many other grievances of which those officers had to complain. Considering that their average was seventy-five years, and that some of those officers had reached eighty-four or eighty-five years, it was hard to expect them, whatever religion they might profess, to attend the services of the Church daily, such services lasting about two hours. There were, however, certain special days on which he supposed there would be no objection on the part of those officers to attend the Church. [Sir COLMAN O'LOGHLEN: Hear, hear!] He thought from the interest which Her Majesty had always taken in the comforts and convenience of those gentlemen, that she would feel disposed, if their case were properly submitted to her by the Government, to give her sanction to the exemption sought for for them. But another hardship to which those officers were subjected was the heavy fees they were compelled to pay upon their appointment as Knights of Windsor, and for other matters incidental to their office. An officer was obliged to pay a fine of £5 5s. 4d. upon his appointment on the lower foundation. There were thirteen knights on the Royal foundation receiving £100 a year, but those on the lower grade received only 1302 £35 17s. 7d. Now, he (Colonel North) thought it too bad that officers receiving such small allowances should be obliged to pay £5 5s. in the first instance, and the same sum on removal from the Lower to the Royal Ward. He did not, however, think that the House of Commons was the proper place to obtain a remedy for those grievances, but hoped that the Government would submit the case of those officers to Her Majesty, who, he had no doubt, would be graciously pleased to relieve them from the obligations imposed on them in respect to the attendance at the Church service and this unnecessary taxation. He must repeat the expression of his delight at the fact of these appointments being opened to Roman Catholics, for who had ever known a Roman Catholic soldier to halt at the deadly breach or to shrink from any of the dangers of the battle-field.

§ MR. LABOUCHERE
thought that, independently of Dissenters and Roman Catholics, who, as Knights of Windsor, were required to attend Divine service in St. George's Chapel, some of the knights, who were Church of England men, had not the slightest wish to go to church every day, and there could not be any necessity for calling on them to do so.

§ GENERAL DUNNE
suggested, that the matter should be submitted to Her Majesty by the Government, and he had no doubt that the grievances complained of would be immediately remedied by our gracious Sovereign. It was formerly the practice to exact fines for non-attendance at chapel, but a stricter rule was now enforced, and attendance was absolutely required. There were many aged gentlemen who, even from their limited means, would rather pay the fines than be obliged to attend church daily.

SIR JOHN HAY
Mr. Dodson, I earnestly hope that my hon. and learned Friend will not insist upon inserting the Amendment of which he has just given notice. I deprecate its insertion because the clause which he proposes is much more important than the Bill to which he desires to add it. The Bill is merely for the purpose of enabling the Admiralty to fill a few vacancies now existing in the Naval Knights of Windsor. The present regulations oblige us to select only from lieutenants who are bachelors and who are of blameless lives. Now, the fact is that though there are plenty of lieutenants of blameless life, there are very few who 1303 are of sufficient standing, and who are also bachelors. The object of this measure is to enable us also to include those lieutenants who have received the rank of retired commander in the list of those from whom we may select; and, also, that widowers may receive the same consolation as bachelors. I concur with what has fallen from my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Oxfordshire in thinking that if any change is necessary, the relief should be sought in a modification of the Statutes of the Order, and not in the Act of Parliament. The duties which these gentlemen are called on to fulfil could never be objected to by them on occasions of State ceremonial to whatever communion they might belong. The duties are common both to them and the Military Knights of Windsor, and thinking, as I do, that it is a fair subject for consideration, whether any relief may be given to these officers, I trust my hon. Friend will not press the adoption of this clause.

§ SIR COLMAN O'LOGHLEN
withdrew the clause, stating that unless the obnoxious regulation, against which it was directed, was abolished, he would again call the attention of the House to the subject next Session.