[BILL 115.] SECOND READING. (Hansard, 2 May 1866)

§ SIR JAMES FERGUSSON
, in moving the second reading of the Bill, said, it was intended to supplement the insufficient receipts of many of the parochial clergy of Scotland by utilizing existing Church property. By the present law, no one could grant a lease of glebe lands for a longer term than his own life; hence, it was impossible that land could be properly farmed, as a tenant could not safely make improvements. The glebes in Scotland consisted on an average of five or six acres, and were originally intended to supply the household wants of the minister. Now, however, the immediate want of a horse and a few cattle was not felt, as those things could be readily obtained by purchase; but the cost of living was increased. It seemed desirable, therefore, that the provision to be made for the ministers of the Church should be utilized as much as possible. It was in the neighbourhood of rising towns where it 331 would be most easy to utilize the glebe land by letting it on building leases, and it was just in these places that the population demanded clergymen of a superior order, such as might be obtained by larger stipends than were now available. The present law did not allow an incumbent to grant a building lease in feu. He could only do that by obtaining a private Act, which would cost £500, and it was quite beyond the reach of an ordinary clergyman to obtain a private Act. The number of glebes in Scotland was about 900; and of these he had information of more than 460 to which the power sought to be obtained by this Bill could be properly applied. As regarded the leases, they were chiefly valuable for the parishes in which there was a very large extent of unimproved land. In 80 parishes the glebes amounted to upwards of 50,000 acres; but that being Church land—not worth more than 1s. an acre—it did not imply an addition to the stipend of more than £40 or £50 a year. But it was represented that extensive glebes would be to a certain extent improvable, and might be much more beneficially farmed by being let, than by the minister farming it himself. From the Returns obtained by the Council of the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland in 1864, it appeared that in 105 glebes, amounting to 660 acres, feuing would be likely to take place. Since then they had heard of 15 more, of 57 acres; so that 717 acres might be very beneficially feued. There were some others, making perhaps 150. In 100 cases, the gain would be from £20 to £80 a year; in 9 cases, there would be about £100 additional; in 7 eases, the gain would be from £100 to £150 a year; in 3, about £200 a year; and in only I above that sum. It was a remarkable fact that, where the gain would be £100 a year, they were nearly all eases where the present stipend of the minister was of the minimum rate allowed by the law—namely, £150 a year; and therefore it was precisely in the cases of the most necessitous ministers that this Bill would benefit the incumbent. Inasmuch as a private Act cost £500, and in seven-tenths of the parishes the Bill would only give additions under £100 a year to the stipends, it was no great thing that was asked; but having regard to the limited income of the parish ministers of Scotland, it was an addition that would be very sensibly felt in increasing their comforts and providing for the education of their families. In the Bill which he had intro- 332 duced, particular pains had been taken to avoid injuring the rights of individuals; and if the House would allow him, he would point out in a few words how the rights of all persons were guarded. In the first place, it was proposed that if the minister desired power to feu his glebe, he should in the first place obtain the consent of the heritors and the Presbytery; and having their consent he should petition the Court of Tiends that it should employ a reporter to make proper inquiries. On his being satisfied that the feuing might be properly exercised, the Court might grant the application, making such rules as the Court should think fit for the carrying out of the scheme. There was a clause providing that all proper sanitary precautions should be made; and then the Bill said that casualties and renewals should go into a sinking fund to defray the original expense. There was a right of pre-emption proposed by the Bill to conterminous proprietors, so that no one could be injured by a populous place being raised in the immediate neighbourhood of a gentleman's park. He thought it was a question whether, even in such a case, there should be power to sell the glebe land. He looked upon the incumbent of a parish as very much in the position of the proprietor of a settled estate. He thought it would be better if the House would grant the second reading of the Bill, to strike out the power to sell to any proprietor, but to give a conterminous proprietor the power to feu the land, if he should prefer. These were the leading provisions of the Bill. There was a clause which provided that after a certain point the proceeds should be applied towards providing additional supervision for the parishes; but he thought that clause might as well be dropped, inasmuch as the addition to the stipends would be so small that there would be no funds available for such a purpose. On the whole, he trusted the House would pass the Bill, which had been submitted to those who represent chiefly the landed property of the country, had been prepared with the full consent of the Church, and injured no one's rights. At all events, he hoped the House would not object to the second reading. He would take care to place the Committee on a distant day, so that all possible consideration might be given to the Bill.

§ SIR ANDREW AGNEW
said, he concurred in most of the remarks that had 333 fallen from the hon. Gentleman who had moved the second reading of the Bill, which he thought would be a measure of general advantage to the Church of Scotland. As the incomes of the Scottish clergy were very scanty, and with regard to half the parishes no means of raising the stipends could be found, any addition that could be given to the incomes must be not only a means of increasing their comforts, but must also have the effect of attracting more extensively the talent of the country; so that there might be retained within the boundaries of the Church those who would naturally demand in their clergymen the possession of such qualifications. With regard to the leases, it appeared to him that eleven years was a long period; and in the uncertainty of human life, supposing a lease was just entered upon, and the minister were to die within a few months afterwards, it would be a disadvantage to the new minister to find that he could not have the occupation of the land for a long period. He saw no objection to the principle of the Bill, if matters were so arranged that consent of the Presbytery should be obtained within one year. With that provision, he should support the second reading of the Bill.

THE LORD ADVOCATE
approved of the object and principle of the Bill, as he thought it was only fair that the clergy of the Church of Scotland should be assisted in the way that it proposed. He had, therefore, no objection to make to the second reading of the Bill. The only remark he had to make on the measure was this—that some provision ought to be made for those cases of parishes where the population had gone far beyond the present means of its spiritual provision. Provision ought to be made for those cases, which would not probably be very numerous; and the provision might be placed under the control of the Commissioners.