§ MR. DAVENPORT BROMLEYsaid, that without any intention to disparage the labours of the late President of the Poor Law Board or of the right hon. Gentleman who now filled that office, he wished to call attention to a subject which he thought of great importance—namely, the defective operation of the Metropolitan Houseless Poor Act during the last two years, and the great number of professional vagrants who have lately been attracted to the metropolis. He believed that the painful, he might almost say revolting, circumstances which had been brought to light with regard to workhouse infirmaries had rather thrust aside and superseded the very important point to which he was about to refer. He did not wish to be understood as stating that the Metropolitan Houseless Poor Act had done no good at all, because he was of opinion that in one respect it had been beneficial. We no longer saw the miserable crowds which we used to see on the steps of the workhouses sleeping all night in the open air. That such sights were witnessed was certainly a disgrace to any civilized town, and more especially to a wealthy metropolis like London; but although this evil had been remedied by the Metropolitan Houseless Poor Act, he had been sorry to find that the tendency of the Act had been to accommodate the professional vagrant rather than the really deserving poor. This was shown by the Returns for which he had moved early this Session, setting forth the enormous difference between the numbers admitted to the casual wards of the metropolitan workhouses in 1864 and 1866, and showing a very great increase in the latter year in the casual wards and lodging-houses. In Kensington in 1866, as compared with 1864, there were upwards of 3 to 1 more male casuals admitted; in Fulham the numbers were about equal; in St. Luke's, Chelsea, the number was as 8 1333 to nil—he referred to the average nightly admissions; in St. George's, Hanover Square, including lodging-houses, as 8 to 1; in St. Margaret's and St. John's, Westminster, as 3 to 1; in St. Martin-in-the-Fields, as 2 to 1; in St. James', Westminster, as 3 to 1; in St. Marylebone parish, as 18 to 1; in St. John's, Hampstead, as 2 to nil; in St. Pancras, as 23 to 1; in St. Mary's, Islington, equal; in Hackney, as 3 to 1; in St. Giles'-in-the-Fields and St. George's, Bloomsbury, as 8 to 1; in the Strand, as 8½ to 1, including lodging-houses. In Holborn Union the male casuals as 11 to 1, including lodging-houses, the female casuals as 10 to 1; in St. James's, Clerkenwell, the male casuals as 8 to 1, the female casuals as 14 to 1; in St. Luke's, Middlesex, as 8 to 1; in the East London, as 10½ to 1; in the West London, the male casuals as 16 to 1, the female casuals as 28 to 1; in the City of London, equal. In St. Leonard's, Shoreditch, the number was 15 to nil; in Bethnal Green, 5 to nil; in Whitechapel Union, 2 to 1; in Mile End Old Town, 4 to 1; in St. Saviour's Union, 3 to 1; in St. Olave's Union, 9 to nil; in Bermondsey parish, 2 to 1; in Lambeth, including lodging-houses, 18 to 1; in Greenwich Union there was no great difference, and in Lewisham no formal record. He adduced from all that that there had been a vast increase in the casual poor who were accommodated in those places, and that these casual poor belonged apparently to the class of professional vagrants. The admirable Minute of the Poor Law Board, written in 1848 by Mr. Charles Buller, stated that experience had shown that the roughness of the lodging and the coarseness of the fare, while inflicting undeserving hardship on the really meritorious destitute wayfarer, had not counterbalanced the inducement which the certainty of food and shelter held out to the dishonest vagrant. The fact was, the dishonest vagrant reaped the advantages which were intended for the benefit of the deserving, and the cost of which came out of the pockets of the ratepayers. The same admirable Minute to which he had referred, and which he would recommend to the President of the Poor Law Board, and to all future Presidents, as a text-book, stated that one of the worst results of the indiscriminate treatment of all who were commonly denominated "casuals" was, that those who were the best objects of charity were subjected to what was intended to 1334 deter the worst. The great difficulty attending the present system was, how to discriminate between the two classes of applicants, and he saw no other mode than that which was recommended in the same paper — namely, the intervention of the police. The police were the best discriminators between habitual vagrants and the deserving poor, for they had the best means of knowing the two, and they would be able to eliminate the vagrants with greater facility than could be done by a workhouse porter. That plan was recommended in 1848, and the Minute from which he had already quoted said that a plan which had been adopted with success in some towns in different parts of England was the employment of a trustworthy officer of police as assistant relieving officer, the effect of which was, that the habitual vagrant who had rendered himself amenable to the law for his criminal acts had been made to disappear. He felt sure that the district asylums which were proposed in 1846, and to which he took occasion to refer last Session, when he recommended the late President of the Poor Law Board to adopt the same system, would, if now established in London, and placed under the control of the police, have removed some of the very great evils which now existed with respect to the casual poor. There should be a certain amount of what he would call "semi-penal treatment;" there should be the labour test most rigorously enforced, and that would be the means of eliminating a considerable portion of those who now tried to subsist upon the provision really intended for the deserving. The greatest portion of these vagrants were as well known to the police as the Members of that House to the door-keepers, and could as easily be kept out as a stranger by one of the officers of that House. Undoubtedly the principle of the law equally required the granting of relief to the destitute and the prevention of the misapplication of public funds to those who were not destitute. He called upon the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Poor Law Board: to resolutely set to work and separate the two classes, establishing kind and humane, though not too attractive, treatment for the deserving poor, and leaving the vagrants to be taken charge of by the police.
§ MR. NEATEsaid, he wished to call attention to the state of the vagrant poor in the provinces as well as in the metro- 1335 polis. Some two years ago he moved for a Return, which showed the rule applicable to the treatment of the casual poor in all the unions subject to the jurisdiction of the Poor Law Board. If they looked to those rules, to the amount of work that was required, and the allowance of food that was made, they would not be surprised to find the great overflow of vagrant poor in the metropolitan workhouses. The law upon the subject was in a most unsatisfactory condition, and he quite concurred with the hon. Gentleman who had just sat down, that we must resort, in a great degree, to the old vagrancy laws, both in their humanity and in their severity, if we desired to put an end to the existing evils. The Guardians of the poor in the country were not commonly aware of the legal rights of the casual poor, and he thought it desirable that an inquiry should be made into the general condition of the casual poor throughout the country, and the mode in which they are treated.
MR. HENLEYsaid, they were all obliged to the hon. Member for North Warwickshire for calling attention to this subject. It would, however, be necessary to go a good deal deeper than the hon. Gentleman had suggested. It was easy to stick a policeman at the door of one of these places and call upon him to discriminate between the deserving poor and the worthless vagrant. But that would be only another mode of trying to scare the people from getting relief, and it was pretty. certain that if this plan were adopted a large class of the casual paupers would not come. Every sort of device had been tried to prevent the casual poor from receiving relief, and when they got the relief the great object of Poor Law Guardians was to get rid of them. Depend upon it, they would never stop this sort of vagrancy unless they took the bull by the horns, and kept the people who came to them until they found out who they were and where they belonged to, and in that way relieved the deserving poor and punished the vagrant. The question was one of much difficulty; but his right hon. Friend the President of the Poor Law Board was young and strong, and no man was more likely to grapple with it successfully. These vagrants might be very unworthy and undeserving, but they might also be in great distress—wet, cold, and destitute of food; and if too strict a hand were kept upon them they would perish, because they would 1336 not apply for relief. He was strongly of opinion that they would not remedy the evil complained of until they detained those who came for relief, examined into their condition, and then either sent them home, if they had one, or detained them where they were and made them work. It was easier to see the evil than to get out of it, but it never would be checked until that course was taken. All the rest was but a temporary expedient, and they might drive the casual poor from pillar to post, but they would be sure to get the better of them. They were passed on from union to union. They tore up their clothes; they were then clad in sackcloth; then they walked to the next union, and tore up the sackcloth, and so the thing went on. He hoped his right hon. Friend would be able, during the recess, to do something towards remedying the evil.
COLONEL HOGGsaid, that he agreed with the observations of the hon. Member for Warwickshire (Mr. Bromley), that the recent legislation respecting casual poor had failed in many respects, and had certainly increased that class of pauperism. He would venture to quote some figures which would prove the truth of this with regard to one workhouse—namely, St. George's, Hanover Square, and the same figures would prove how impossible it was to carry out the suggestion of the right hon. Member for Oxfordshire (Mr. Henley), who advised that casuals should be detained in the workhouses where they sought refuge, and work found for them. The two workhouses of St. George's, Hanover Square, would not hold more than 700, whilst in one month shelter had been given to as many as 1,282 casual poor. The figures are as follows:—In January, 1864, there were 346 casuals relieved. In February, 1866, the number was 1,282; in March, 1,192; in April, 817; in May, 950. The workhouse being able to accommodate so limited a number, the great bulk were sent out to lodging-houses engaged for the occasion. More than one of the Guardians had taken pains to get work for the able-bodied casuals, and he had himself offered them clothes if they would go to work. In scarcely a single instance, however, had these men come to receive the clothes thus offered to them, and do the work. He thought it rather hard upon these persons that they were kept at work until eleven o'clock, a. m., in exchange for a night's lodging, for it was then too late for a man to get a day's work. The casuals 1337 who were relieved were charged upon the general rate of the metropolis; but if they were taken sick while they were in the workhouse, and remained in the infirmary, they were charged upon the parish. He thought it would be fairer if the expense of maintaining the casuals who thus fell ill were charged upon the general metropolitan rate. If a destitute man came and wanted a lodging he did not see how the police who might be employed could refuse him relief.
§ MR. GATHORNE HARDYsaid, that the question to which the hon Member for North Warwickshire had called attention was one of great difficulty. The discussion, however, had rather wandered from the Metropolitan Houseless Poor Act, for his right hon. Friend had entered upon the question of vagrancy throughout the country generally. It was very difficult to amend the law in any given direction without causing some evil in another. The Metropolitan Houseless Poor Act was brought in to suppress a great evil—that a great number of people were in the habit of sleeping out of doors in the streets of the metropolis. It was discreditable to the Guardians and to the country that such a state of things should exist as that a number of poor persons should be unable to obtain admission into the workhouses, or to get food, and that they were found sleeping under arches and elsewhere. An Act was passed which had so far remedied the evil that none of these things now happened in the metropolis. Accommodation was now provided for above 2,000 of the houseless poor in the metropolitan workhouses, while the average number of applicants was only somewhat over 1,000. No doubt a great increase had taken place lately in the number of applicants, but whether the Act attracted the class of professional vagrants to the metropolis, or that persons applied for admission who did not go to the workhouses before, he was unable to state. Perhaps the greater care now taken to prevent disorder and dissolute conduct might explain some of the increase which had arisen; but he had not been long enough in office to satisfy himself on this point. He found, from the latest information which he could obtain that day, that there were about seventeen unions in the metropolis in which the police acted as assistant relieving officers, which would leave about twenty-three unions in which the ordinary relieving officers were employed in that service. It might 1338 be desirable to ascertain what was the character of the poor in those unions where the police acted in this capacity, and what was their character in unions where the police were not so employed; but as yet he had not been able to arrive at any conclusion on the subject; and, indeed, he trusted the House would excuse him if he had not yet inquired into the question of vagrancy, whether in the metropolis or the country, because the short time during which he had held office had been occupied with other subjects which, he would say, were very important, although he did not mean to underrate the importance of that question. He was sure the House would desire to distinguish, as far as practicable, between the professional vagrant and those poor persons who fell into destitution from illness, deaths in their families, and other causes which they could not prevent, so that the Poor Law might be administered in a humane and benevolent manner without any more harshness than was absolutely necessary to get rid of the professional vagrant. He would assure hon. Gentlemen that his attention should be given to that matter both in London and the provinces. He could not say that the Houseless Poor Act had failed in the object for which it was passed—namely, to remove from the streets the houseless poor who used to wander about the metropolis. That had to a great extent been done; and it now remained to be seen whether they could not accomplish the further end of deterring the class of applicants who in no sense deserved relief, but who rather, as his right hon. Friend (Mr. Henley) had remarked, deserved punishment.
§ Main Question put, and agreed to.
§ SUPPLY considered in Committee.
§ (In the Committee.)
§ (1.) £140,000, Manufacturing Departments.
GENERAL PEELSir, the necessity for the Supplementary Estimate which I am now about to move has arisen from circumstances that occurred during the interval between the resignation of the last Government and the accession to Office of the present Government. But so far from being at all guilty of the charge brought against me earlier in the evening by the right hon. Member for South Lancashire (Mr. Gladstone) for having adopted undue haste, I think that neither this House nor 1339 the country will be of opinion that any undue haste could be exhibited in arming our soldiers with good breech-loading weapons in the briefest possible period. On the contrary, I hold it to be a matter of great congratulation that at a comparatively trifling expense this can be effected in a very short space of time. Where the right hon. Gentleman got the figures which he gave I cannot tell. He stated that I said it would require an expenditure of £250,000 not only during the present but also during the next financial year; and I think he went on even to the third year likewise. Now, I certainly am not presumptuous enough to express any opinion as to what may take place in the financial year two years hence; but it may be a matter of great satisfaction to the right hon. Gentleman, and, I trust, to the House also, to know that even of this Supplementary Estimate of £245,000 on the whole, only one-half is for conversions. When I acceded to office I found myself in this position. Two years ago the late Government came to the decision, on the Report of a Committee which sat for the express purpose, that the whole army should be armed with breech-loaders; and the delay in carrying it out only arose from their not arriving at a decision as to what pattern should be adopted. But when I came into office I found that that point also had been decided, and that a pattern had been adopted by which the Enfield rifle was to be converted into a breech-loader. And if any blame is due to me for acting with promptitude on the decision so arrived at by my predecessors, I must plead guilty of it; for I certainly lost no time in carrying out what I am sure would have been done by my predecessor had he remained in office, and in taking every means in my power to increase the number of breech-loaders to be provided during the course of the present financial year. The number that was provided for by the Estimate for the present year already before the House was only 40,000. I received the Seals of Office on Friday, the 6th of July; and instantly on my return home I directed a telegram to be sent to the head of the Royal Small Arms Factory at Enfield that I desired to see him next morning in order to take every possible step for increasing that number. When I saw him next morning I was somewhat disappointed at learning that the factory could not furnish as great a supply as I had hoped might have been possible during the present year, and that I should 1340 be obliged to have recourse to the trade. I at once adopted the suggestion and instituted inquiries to ascertain what the trade would undertake to supply; and I am happy to say that on the Monday following I received a letter from the head of the Royal Small Arms Factory to this effect—
Sir,—After a careful examination into the existing arrangements which have been made for completing 40,000 converted Enfield rifles by the 1st of April, 1867, and after consulting with the manager and leading foreman, I find that by working late at night, turning a portion of the factory temporarily into a tool-making shop, and by making great exertions in every department of the factory, I can promise to convert 100,000 Enfield rifles into Snider's breech-loaders by the 1st of April next. In order, however, to enable me to do this amount of work not a day must be lost in giving me the necessary orders to proceed. I shall require the following additional funds — namely:— For 60,000 conversions — wages, £36,000; materials, £6,000; miscellaneous stores, £2,000; for engineer services, for foundations for new machines, and erecting furnaces, &c., £1,200. Estimated total, £45,200. I must request authority for the purchasing direct and at once of machinery to the extent of £1,460, as before stated.So that for an additional outlay of £45,200 in the manufacture at Enfield we can increase the number promised to be made in the present financial year from 40,000 to 100,000. I may also say that we have entered into a contract with a firm at Birmingham to furnish 50,000 more during this financial year; and we have likewise reason to hope that from the rest of the trade we shall be able to obtain another 50,000. That is to say, we anticipate that by the first of April next we shall have 200,000 Enfield rifles converted into breechloaders, and that at an expense for their conversion of about £140,000. The rest of this Estimate is for the ammunition for these converted rifles, which is different from that used for the ordinary muzzle-loader, being a self-igniting cartridge, and dearer than the common ammunition by £1 per 1,000 rounds. In other words, instead of costing £2 per 1,000 rounds, it will cost £3. Of the £140,000 proposed as the first Vote, £120,000 is for ammunition and not for conversion. That sum will provide 200 rounds each for the 200,000 rifles which we hope to get during the current financial year. I think that 200 rounds, considering the great rapidity of the breech-loader in firing, is not more than is necessary, and I am sure the House will never hesitate a moment in voting any sum which may be required to place our soldiers at all events upon an equal footing 1341 with those of any other country; and it is clear that this arm, when converted, is quite equal to any arm used in any other service. I do not say that a superior weapon may not subsequently be produced, but what we have to do at present is to convert our muzzle-loading Enfield rifles into breechloaders.
§ MR. REARDENsaid, it ought to be borne in mind that the weapon proposed to be supplied to the army was probably not the best weapon which could be provided. He understood that there was then within the precincts of the House a breech-loader capable of being fired twenty times in a minute; and he believed the repeating Spencer rifle could carry more than twenty discharges.
COLONEL SYKESsaid, he understood that the Government had only just intimated to the small arms' manufacturers throughout the country that that process of conversion was to be attempted; and the consequence was that they expected 50,000 converted Enfields from Birmingham by next April. But if the small arms' manufacturers had been informed six months ago of this intended conversion they would have turned out by this time all that were required. He could not see the object of such haste, as the country was not going to war.
§ MR. HENRY BAILLIEsaid, he did not consider that there had been any haste in the matter, for the subject had been under the consideration of the Ordnance Select Committee for the last ten years, and the result of their deliberations was the selection of the weapon now adopted by the Government.
§ MR. OLIPHANTsaid, there was no charge which the people of this country were more apt to make against the Government than that they had unnecessarily delayed in availing themselves of mechanical improvements; and it was, he thought, unfair to charge the Government now with precipitation merely because their action was unusually rapid. If they were always to wait for the last invention, they would never have a weapon at all, because there would always be some newer invention than the last discovered. Repeating carbines might be used by cavalry, but repeating rifles were not suited for infantry, on account of the enormous quantity of ammunition which the soldier would require. The converted Enfield would put us on a par with any other nation, and he considered the course adopted by the Govern- 1342 ment on the present occasion was deserving of praise.
§ MR. MAGUIREsaid, he did not believe that the converted Enfield was the best weapon which they could procure. He had on the preceding day been talking to an officer who was himself a musketry instructor, and who had been in America during the war, and that gentleman told him that the Enfield was one of the worst weapons in existence and barely safe, as the metal of which it was composed was so soft that the least blow upon it destroyed it. The Americans adopted steel in the construction of their new weapons, and that seemed to be a wonderful improvement. He thought there was no necessity for a panic in the provision of arms; England was at peace with all the world. He hoped that the Continent, even, was now at peace. We were constructing armourplated turret ships. But where was the enemy? We were adopting the Enfield rifle modified, which the War Minister said was the very best arm, but which he (Mr. Maguire) regarded as being only a makeshift.
§ MAJOR WALKERsaid, that the late Government by ordering 40,000 converted rifles had committed themselves to the principle that the converted Enfield was to be the future arm of the British infantry, and he gave them the highest credit for adopting that weapon. It might be that by making inquiries and experiments extending over a couple of years the Government would at length obtain a paragon weapon; but it would be a disgrace to the country if, in the event of any emergency occurring in the meantime, the army was found to be armed only with the old-fashioned muzzleloader. It was impossible for any one who studied the Return giving an account of the experiments carried on by the Ordnance Select Committee in reference to the converted Snider Enfield rifle to doubt for a moment that the British troops would possess in that arm as formidable a weapon as a soldier could carry, both for the accuracy and rapidity of firing, and for the durability of the weapon. The country ought to be grateful to the Government for furnishing our soldiers with a weapon which would be superior to that possessed by any other European army.
§ MR. WHALLEYsaid, he regretted that the work of improving the arms of our soldiers should be taken up in a panic. He, however, hoped our Volunteers would also receive the benefit of the improved 1343 arms, for a complaint had been made on the part of Volunteer Artillery on the south coast, that they were drilled with arms which did not qualify them so that they might be able to afford that service to the country which might naturally be expected considering the expenditure of time and of zeal to which they were put.
GENERAL PEELdenied that the work of improving the arms of our soldiers had been undertaken in a panic; for no less than two years ago the late Government decided that the whole army should be furnished with breech-loaders. He had never said that the converted rifle was the best breech-loader that could ever be produced. He himself had mentioned the Henry rifle; but the Snider pattern was the best to which the Enfield could be converted. The object was, at a moderate expense, to convert our muzzle-loader rifle into the best breech-loader that could be made of it. There need be no fear that the French would have a gun superior to ours, for the very weapon they had adopted was submitted to the Ordnance Select Committee. As to the repeating rifles, it was not possible to convert the Enfield into an arm of this description. He would supply the Volunteers with the new weapon as fast as he could, but the intention naturally was to supply the regular army first. The navy also would require their proportion; and he feared it would not be possible to supply the Volunteers with the converted rifle during the present year. With regard to the Volunteer Artillery, and the guns with which they were exercised, he had already taken measures which, he thought, would satisfy the hon. Gentleman.
COLONEL SYKESsaid, it was plain from what had lately occurred at Wimbledon that this improved rifle could not be the permanent arm of our troops, and he considered it very questionable prudence to continue supplying our soldiers with a weapon which might need re-placing with one of another construction next year.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ (2.) £105,000, Warlike Stores, &c.
§ (3.) £520,530, to complete the sum for Public Education in Great Britain.
MR. CORRYsaid, he was sure the Committee would agree with him in thinking that he would be open to the imputation of indiscretion if, after having held his present office for so short a time, he were to express any opinion respecting the 1344 various educational questions which had, of late, been the subject of so much controversy. And there was an additional reason for reserve on his part on this occasion, because the whole question had been under the consideration of a Select Committee for the last two Sessions, and their Report, delivered only on Friday last, while it expressed no definite opinion, left it to the House to determine whether it should be re-appointed next year for the purpose of considering the draft Report proposed by their Chairman, the First Lord of the Admiralty. The question was therefore still sub judice, and under these circumstances, he thought he should best perform his duty by merely laying before the House as shortly as possible an account of past expenditure, and some of its results, together with an Estimate for the service of the ensuing year. Before doing so, however, he hoped he might be allowed to tender his grateful acknowledgments to his right hon. Friend and predecessor in office for his kindness in placing his time ungrudgingly at his (Mr. Corry's) disposal, and in giving him the information he required respecting these Estimates. He should always entertain a grateful recollection of the assistance which his right hon. Friend had thus afforded him, and of which he stood much in need. He believed it was usual in proposing the Vote for Education to give an account of the expenditure of the two preceding years, and, in accordance with this practice, he would state that the total expenditure for Great Britain in 1864 was £655,041, and in 1865 £636,810, being a decrease in 1865 of £18,231. This expenditure occurred under four principal heads—for building, enlarging, and improving schools; for maintenance of training colleges; for annual grants; and for the salaries and expenses of inspectors; and the cost of the Department in London. The expenditure for building, enlarging, and improving schools, which in 1864 was £28,305, was in 1865 only £18,882, showing a decrease under this head of £9,423. He was informed that this considerable decrease arose from two causes—in the first place, the number of schools now provided in many parts of the country had diminished the demand for new schools to be erected by Government aid; and secondly, the operation of the conscience clause was to deter in many instances the managers in the small rural parishes from availing themselves of the grant. The sum of £18,882 granted by 1345 the State for building, enlarging, and improving schools in 1865 had been met by voluntary contributions to the amount of £62,274. In 1864, the expenditure on the maintenance of training colleges was £96,166, and in 1865, £75,624, showing a decrease of £20,542. The decrease was owing to the operation of the Revised Code, under which the maximum grant to any college was limited to three-fourths of the whole expenditure. Under the old system the grant was higher, sometimes equalling the whole cost. The annual grants in 1864 amounted to £455,826; and in 1865, to £467,357, being an increase of £11,531. This was owing to a larger attendance of children, and better results of examination. The expense of inspectors and of the London office was in 1864, £74,744; and in 1865, £74,947, being an increase of £203. This small increase was occasioned by the progressive increase of salaries to officers. He would now compare the number of schools in the two years. In 1865 the number of schools built, enlarged, and improved was 111, and additional accommodation was thus provided for 15,300 children. The number of schools inspected in 1864 was 7,891; in 1865 it was 8,438, showing an increase of 547. Of these, the number receiving annual grants was 7,273 in 1864, and 7,883 in 1865, being an increase of 610. The increase in the course of the last year alone was more by 101 than in the whole of the three preceding years, in which the increase was only 509. The number of school-rooms, or separate departments under separate teachers, in 1864, was 11,818, and in 1865, 12,950, showing an increase of 1,132, and, of course, a corresponding increase of efficiency. The number of children present at inspections in England and Scotland was in 1864, 1,133,291, and in 1865, 1,246,055, being an increase of 112,764. The number of such children in schools receiving annual grants was in 1864, 1,094,632, and in 1865, 1,203,422; so that nearly the whole of the above increase took place in schools receiving annual grants. These figures did not show the total number of children attending the schools, since many were absent on the day of inspection. In England and Scotland, the total number might be taken at 1,500,000. With regard to teaching power, in 1864 the number of certified teachers engaged was 10,809, and in 1865, 11,510, showing an increase of 701. In 1864 the number of assistant 1346 teachers engaged was 688, and in 1865 912, or an increase of 224. The total teaching power, excluding pupil-teachers, was in 1864,11,497, and in 1865, 12,422, showing an increase of 925. The number of pupil-teachers was in 1864, 12,161, and in 1865, 11,221, showing a decrease of 940 resulting from the operation of the Revised Code. Formerly, when the pupil-teachers were paid directly by the State, it was the interest of the managers of schools to have as many pupil-teachers as possible; but now, under the Revised Code, when payment is made on the results of examinations, they were employed only so far as to avoid a deduction from the grant. The place of pupil-teachers was in some measure supplied by monitors, who were of a superior class, being under certificated teachers. It was the interest of the managers that they should be equal to their work; but, notwithstanding, monitors were not looked upon as efficient substitutes for pupil-teachers. The number of students in training colleges was in 1864, 2,739, and in 1865, 2,482, showing a decrease of 257, resulting from the smaller supply of pupil-teachers and from the growing demand for educated men in other walks of life. Now, with respect to attendance and examinations. The average attendance in day-schools in England and Wales was in 1864, 794,387, and in 1865, 848,044. In Scotland the number for 1864 could not conveniently be given; in 1865 it was 159,000. Of these there were individually examined, over six years of age, in England and Wales in 1864, 523,713, and in 1865, 561,326, or 66.19 per cent on the whole; and in Scotland, the number for 1864 could not be given, but in 1865 the number was 96,432. The number of children under six years of age in England and Wales, examined generally but not individually, was in 1864, 133,621, and in 1865, 146,600; and for Scotland the number for 1864 could not be given, but for 1865 it was 11,979. These might earn 6s. 6d. each for the school on general results. The average attendance at night schools in England and Wales was in 1864, 25,981, and in 1865, 33,904; in Scotland, 2,645 in 1864, and 1,806 in 1865. Now, as to those individually examined, the failures in reading for England and Wales were in 1864, 11.87 per cent, and in 1865, 11.23 per cent; for Scotland, 10.89 per cent in 1864, and 7.64 per cent in 1865. The failures in writing for England and Wales in 1864 were 137.98 per cent, and in 1865, 13.09 per cent; for Scotland 28.06 1347 per cent in 1864, and 20.13 per cent in 1865. The failures in arithmetic for England and Wales were in 1864, 23.69 per cent, and in 1865, 23.58 per cent; for Scotland in 1864, 33.04 per cent, and in 1865, 28.04 per cent. Thus in Scotland the standard in writing and arithmetic was lower than in England, but the improvement had been greater. The reading in Scotland was always better. He now came to the Education Estimates for the year ending March 31, 1867. The grand total for 1866–7 was £694,530, as against £693,078 last year. showing an increase of £1,452. The Estimate for Scotland (annual grants) for 1866–7 was £75,900, against £73,000 last year—an increase of £2,900. The original code still regulated the payment of grants in Scotland. A Royal Commission had been sitting to investigate the question of Education in Scotland, and was understood to have expressed its opinion in the form of a draft Bill. Pensions to schoolmasters in Great Britain for 1866–7 stood at £650, the same as last year. No new pensions were now granted. The annual grants for schools in England and Wales amounted this year to £431,694, against £430,450 last year; showing an increase of £1,244. This Estimate was calculated on an average attendance of 916,722 day scholars at 9s. ld. per head, and of 50,000 night scholars at 6s. The total number of children on the books in Great Britain was 1,500,000. For building, enlarging, and improving schools the Estimate for this year was the same as that for last year—namely, £30,000. The actual—expenditure under this head last year was, as he had already stated, only £18,882, but he was informed that an increased demand equal to the difference was anticipated by the late Government. The grants for the maintenance of training colleges were this year estimated at £75,000, against £80,000 last year; the reduction of £5,000 being due to the gradual operation of the Revised Code to which he had already adverted. For administration in London and inspectors the sum this year estimated was £78,656, against £76,478, showing an increase of £2,178, owing to the appointment of two new inspectors and the progressive increase of salaries in the officers. The last item in these Estimates—namely, that of poundage on post office orders, stood this year at £2,630, against £2,500 last year. He believed he had now gone through all the figures of gene- 1348 ral interest; and, as he stated at the commencement of his observations, he would not at present trouble the Committee with any general remarks. He was aware that the statement he had made was very dry and uninteresting, as was, indeed, almost unavoidable within the limits he had prescribed to himself; but he felt that, considering the short time during which he had held office, a simple narration of facts such as he had offered was the most appropriate statement that he could make. In conclusion, he could assure the House that he entered on the duties of his office with a deep sense of the responsibility which attached to it, and with an earnest desire to promote the great cause of public education by every means in his power.
§ MR. POWELLsaid, he wished to make a few remarks on the subject of this Vote, which involved no less an expenditure than £700,000. It was a misfortune that a question so important, so grave, and so deeply affecting the prospects of the country, should, at the same time, be one of so much detail as to render its discussion comparatively dry and uninteresting. He should not do justice to his own feelings if he did not on this occasion venture to express the sense he entertained of the manner in which the late Vice President of the Committee of Council on Education had conducted the business of the Department—the knowledge he always displayed of a wide and comprehensive subject, the zeal he observed for the extension of education, and the sympathy be evinced towards those who had borne the burden and the heat of the day in the various districts of England. He hoped they should hear some account of the success of the great change which had been introduced last year, which was known as Miss Burdett Coutts' system, showing that the expectations entertained in regard to it were not altogether futile and without issue. The first thing to cause regret to one engaged in reviewing the system of education was the decrease in the supply of male teachers. The Committee which had sat upon the subject spoke in their Report of the great difficulty of mending the system, and said that it was inexpedient to deal with the questions raised unless it was fairly to be presumed that a satisfactory conclusion would be come to, because otherwise discussion would only disturb the minds of those engaged in carrying out the present system. One very substantial cause 1349 for a decrease in the supply of male teachers was the great inducement offered to young men to enter more lucrative, though, perhaps, not more honourable, fields of labour. It was necessary to deal with education on sound commercial principles; and if the inducements at present offered to young men to become teachers were insufficient, they should be increased. Formerly it could be said that a young teacher could compare favourably with others of the same station, but differently employed; now, however, his equal in birth seemed to be in a better monetary position, and had also more spare time at his command. If the lack of male pupil-teachers resulted in unfilled colleges, he recommended that one of them should be devoted to the education of teachers for girls. Some time ago there were great complaints that in the schools assisted by Government grants the children were taught far beyond the necessities of the case. So far from this being the case now, it was said that the superior class of children were leaving the schools in consequence of what he might call ornamental teaching having been largely dispensed with; he was sorry the more substantial education which had been substituted for it was not appreciated. He was pleased, however, to hear that the number of scholars generally had increased, and promised to move for a Return showing what accommodation was afforded in the schools now existing. But it was not merely a question of school accommodation in proportion to the population; the extension of the Factory Acts to other trades than they at present dealt with was, in his opinion, an essential preliminary to a large extension of educational machinery. He would not enter into the question on districts which were now neglected, but he believed that many districts described in blue books were not neglected, and that schools of an inferior class were established in them. It was the duty of the House to raise the character of those schools, and to give to those who were willing to adopt the rules a share of those liberal grants which were year by year made by Parliament for the purposes of education. He might, as an illustration, mention the mode in which education had been extended in Manchester. In that city there was a society known by the name of the Free School Society, the object of which was to visit the people from house to house, and wherever 1350 it was ascertained that from poverty children were not instructed, to pay the pence necessary for their instruction. He wished to see local philanthrophy meet local deficiency and the central Government grant applied to aid those philanthropists, for by that means education would be diffused throughout the country in a more efficient manner than it would be by any system of local rates. Then, as regards the building of schools, he thought the Council too strict. Opinions might be expressed upon the subject of their size and other matters, and possibly the promoters of local schemes might be induced thereby to modify their plans; but he was sure that a greater desire to bend to the wishes of promoters on the part of the Council would prevent many heartburnings, and often do much service to the cause of education. In conclusion, he expressed a hope that the present system would not be lightly interfered with, but that it would be permitted to expand. He was fully convinced that such a policy would result in the setting up of most excellent schools in every town and village of Great Britain, sufficient to supply the educational wants of the population.
§ MR. WHALLEYsaid, he wished that the hon. Member for Leeds had been present to propose the doing away with this Vote for Education altogether, for in his (Mr. Whalley's) opinion the education of children would be more efficient if it were left, not to State grants, but to the natural feelings of parents. The danger was that the State grant—especially when not properly administered — discouraged voluntary contributions. He was sorry to find that the present Government had adopted the scheme of the late Government for a large extension of the system as regarded industrial and reformatory schools. A portion of the Education Vote was expended under an Act of Parliament which actually took out of the hands of parents the determination of the religion of children between the ages of seven and fourteen, and left it to the magistrates to say in what religion these children should be brought up. Through the operation of this Act the Roman Catholic priests throughout the country were enabled surreptitiously to re-baptise children, and to obtain magisterial recognition of the re-baptism, and in that way they superseded entirely the religious influence of the parents. He observed that there was an item of £26,000 for Roman Catholic 1351 Schools. Was it within the scope of the Education Department to ascertain the nature of the education given in those schools? The results of the education were manifested in the Fenian conspiracy, which was chiefly sustained by persons professing the Roman Catholic religion. He also found that £360,000 was given to the Church of England for the purposes of education, and he wished to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he had inquired into the nature of the education for which the money was given? He believed that nearly half the amount went towards educating children for the service of Rome.
§ MR. ALDERMAN SALOMONSrose to order. The remarks of the hon. Member were scarcely relevant to the subject before the House. If other hon. Members entered into so wide a discussion their debates would run to a most inconvenient length.
§ MR. WHALLEYwas proceeding when,
§ MR. POWELLsaid, he rose to call the attention of the Chairman to the observations of the hon. Member for Greenwich.
§ MR. WHALLEYsaid, he could only describe the interruption of the hon. Member for Cambridge as impertinent.
§ MR. WHALLEYsaid, he would withdraw the word in obedience to the call of the Chairman, but he adhered to the sentiment it expressed.
THE CHAIRMANsaid, that the hon. Member had only withdrawn the expression in one form to repeat it in another.
§ MR. WHALLEYsaid, he would withdraw the repetition, but wished to be permitted to retain his own opinion upon the subject. Did the right hon. Gentleman regard it as a part of his duty to inquire into the character of the education given to children in Roman Catholic schools and also in Church of England schools?
MR. BRUCEthought that his right hon. Friend and successor had exercised a wise discretion in confining himself to a bare statement of facts and figures. It would have been premature to raise a discussion on these controverted points, which had been fully inquired into by the Committee over which the First Lord of the Admiralty (Sir John Pakington) had presided with so much impartiality, and the two volumes of evidence taken before that Committee, and the Report of that right hon. 1352 Gentleman, would be found to contain matter which would worthily occupy the attention of the Department during the recess. The right hon. Gentleman had abundantly appreciated the little assistance he had been able to give him since he entered upon his office, and he could not refuse himself the pleasure of thanking hon. Gentlemen opposite for the uniform consideration and kindly spirit with which they had judged his own acts and opinions during his tenure of office. He trusted that the same spirit would continue to animate the House, and that the subject of education would ever be kept out of the arena of party contest. The progress made during the last year showed that the country was recovering from the state of alarm and uncertainty into which they had been thrown by the Revised Code. The increase in the number of schools receiving annual grants was greater during the single year 1865 than that of the three preceding years in the aggregate, and the addition of 108,000 scholars in one year was as large as that made in any one preceding year since the Education Grant had been made. Perhaps the hon. Member for Peterborough (Mr. Whalley) would regard that circumstance rather as a misfortune than as a subject for congratulation, inasmuch as these children now receiving their education in schools aided by the State had formerly been educated by purely voluntary efforts. The difference, however, was that they would in future, as a general rule, be educated in good instead of indifferent schools. An indifferent school left the population as it found it, torpid, stationary, contented in its ignorance. The good school, dealing with a similar population, soon introduced the elements of hope and progress, and enabled the more gifted and energetic children to rise to posts of honour and profit. How was it that so many Scotchmen of humble parentage had risen to positions of trust and consideration? It was because the very poorest could command a good education for their children. The Report of the Committee of Council for the year ending July 1865 was the first which gave the matured view of the inspectors on the operation of the Revised Code. The battles fought over that Code seemed now so remote that it was difficult to believe that it had only been in complete operation for two years; for although its operation commenced in July 1862, it only became general in July 1863. Each Report contained the experience of half of the 1353 whole number of inspectors, and therefore extended over two years. The financial results of that great experiment were remarkable. The highest expenditure on National education was in 1861, when it reached £813,000. Since that time the number of aided schools had increased by 1,119, or from 6,764 to 7,883; the number of scholars present at inspection by 234,000, or from 969 to 1,203,000; the increase of the number of children on the books being about 300,000; while the expenditure had fallen to £636,810, being a diminution of £1 76,632. The greater part of this decrease had occurred in the building grants, which had fallen from £106,451 in 1861, to £88,569 in 1865. The grants to training colleges had fallen in the same time from £101,865 to £75,624. The decrease under these two heads amounted, therefore, to £114,810. This diminution in the grant must not, however, be taken as a proof of diminished activity in the cause of education. Since 1839 the building grants voted by Parliament amounted to £1,602,808, to meet local contributions of no less than £2,972,258, making a total of £4,575,066 spent on the mere erection of schools. It was impossible to estimate how much, in addition to this enormous sum, had been expended by private liberality unaided by the State; but undoubtedly it was a very large sum, probably not less than £2,000,000. A large portion of the country had thus been supplied with schools, and some considerable diminution of expenditure under this head was therefore inevitable. That the accommodation thus provided was not insufficient was proved by the fact that at the last inspection only 1,246,000 children were present in schools capable of containing 1,616,000. Such were the financial results of the Revised Code; as to its effects upon education there was considerable difference of opinion. The Reports of the majority of inspectors were decidedly favourable to its operation; but some inspectors, while not denying some good results, attributed to it also some mischievous ones. Two inspectors reported in terms of unmixed condemnation. He would endeavour to present to the Committee a fair estimate of the practical effects of the new Code. In the first place, there had undoubtedly been effected a considerable reduction of unnecessary expenditure. Under the old Code the grants had frequently been in excess of the wants of schools, and it was within his knowledge that in some cases an annual 1354 saving had been made out of the grants, and carried to a capital account. It had also diminished the number of pupil-teachers, which had been extravagantly great. It had reduced the number of students at training colleges, many of whom had been educated at the public expense, without any intention of devoting themselves to the profession of teachers. It had at the same time so arranged the system of payments to the training colleges, that grants were only made on account of those pupils who had given some proof of their intention to devote themselves to the work of teaching. The system of individual examination had secured to all the children throughout the school an equal degree of care and instruction, and had thus removed an important defect in the former system of education. Another valuable result was that the direct dependence of teachers on the State had ceased. They now made their own arrangements with the managers. Such were the principal good results. On the other hand, the sudden reduction in the scale of annual payments undoubtedly involved many managers of schools in great difficulties. The average payment on each child under the old Code had been 11s. 6d. The estimated payment under the Revised Code was 10s. per child; but it actually amounted to only 8s., being a reduction of 3s. 6d. a head. It would easily be understood how heavily this large and sudden decrease of receipts had fallen upon managers of schools, especially in the poorer districts, and in small schools. The clergy, already heavily taxed in proportion to their resources in maintaining these schools, were the principal sufferers by the change, to which, therefore, they naturally objected. Some improvement had taken place in the rate of payment, which reached 9s. a head last year, and was estimated at 9s. ld. for the present year. Then, again, the reduction in the number of pupil-teachers and students at the training colleges, although salutary and desirable within certain limits, had perhaps been carried too far. The increasing number of annual grant schools was necessarily leading to an increased demand for certificated teachers, the supply of whom it might soon be difficult to furnish. It was urged, too, against the Revised Code that, while it undoubtedly secured greater equality of instruction in reading, writing, and arithmetic, it operated injuriously in checking the useful 1355 study of history, geography, and grammar. He did not wish to dispute the validity of any of these objections. The means of obviating them had been much considered by the Department; but it would have been inexpedient to propose any changes, while so much of the subject of public education was still under the examination of the Select Committee, and before their Report had been received; but he believed that remedies to these defects might be applied, and in fact his noble Friend (Earl Granville) and himself had been quite prepared to suggest them. The financial difficulties of the smaller schools, and the diminution in the number of pupil-teachers, might be met by allowing a higher rate of payment for the first 100 children in every school, and by coupling with that concession the obligation of providing a larger proportion of teaching power than is insisted upon by the Revised Code. There was another alteration which might be advantageously made. Although a large portion of the country was well supplied with schools there was still a deficiency in our agricultural parishes, where the value of property was inconsiderable, and in the outskirts and suburbs of our populous towns, where, although the property might be very valuable, the resources of the resident population, consisting chiefly of the labouring classes, were small. The building grants had been successively reduced from 6s. and 4s. to 2s. 6d. per foot of internal area, while the cost of building had greatly increased. He thought, therefore, that the building grant might be advantageously restored to its previous amount of 4s. He believed that these alterations would give an important stimulus to education in the poorest and most neglected districts without entailing any considerable addition to the expenditure. The Returns for the last year showed some improvement in the quality as well as in the quantity of the education given in our elementary schools. Of the children subjected to individual examination 40 per cent were of or above ten years of age. If the schools did their work well it would not be unreasonable to expect that all children of this age should pass a successful examination in one of the three upper standards. In the first year of individual examination, however, the number who presented themselves were only fourteen, of whom ten passed successfully. In 1864 sixteen presented themselves, and eleven passed. In 1865 the numbers had increased to 1356 twenty presenting themselves, of whom thirteen passed. Much ground had, therefore, been gained, although there was room for considerable improvement. The Minute passed about a year ago for facilitating the examination of night schools had had a great effect in encouraging attendance. The numbers presented in 1865 were 33,904, as against 25,981 in 1864; and so rapid was their rate of increase that provision had been made in the Estimates of this year for 50,000. He had been asked how the scheme known as Miss Burdett Coutts', permitting the union of five small schools under one certificated teacher, had worked. He regretted to say that but little success had attended that experiment. Only three such groups had yet been formed. But it took a long time to make the knowledge of such changes penetrate the country, and although he did not believe that this arrangement would afford much aid to the spread of education, he did not despair of seeing some further extension of the experiment. His hon. Friend the Member for Peterborough had asked what sort of education was given in Roman Catholic and Church of England schools. The State did not prescribe any form of religious education, nor did it dictate or control the choice of books employed in such instruction. It only required that religious instruction should be given, and in Church of England schools the sufficiency of the religious teaching was inquired into by Her Majesty's Inspectors, who were invariably clergymen of the Church of England approved by the Archbishop of the province in which the school was situated. Considering that the great majority of children left school at or under ten years of age, his hon. Friend, he thought, expressed needless alarm as to the propagation of unsound doctrinal knowledge. The hon. Member had blamed the Vice President for not discussing the provisions of the Industrial Schools Bill and Reformatory Schools Bill; but he was either too late or too early in his criticisms. He should either have taken his objections when his right hon. Friend the late Home Secretary proposed the Home Office Estimates, or he should have deferred them until the Bills were before the House. In conclusion, he might confifidently state that the education of the country was in a healthy and progressive condition. The promoters of education and the managers of schools had recovered from the alarm and uncertainty caused by 1357 the introduction of the Revised Code, and the country, he hoped, would gradually be covered with an increasing number of schools imparting as sound an education as the elementary schools of any people in the world.
MR. HENLEYsaid, he was sure that the whole Committee felt much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for his very fair and clear statement of the various pros and cons of this difficult question. There could be no doubt that of the various educational efforts that had been made the night schools had proved the most successful; and he should be glad if it turned out that the other observations of the right hon. Gentleman as to the improved state of education throughout the schools of the country generally were equally well founded. The alleged improvement rested solely on the Reports of inspectors and results of examinations, as to which he could not help feeling somewhat sceptical, knowing that by the time a man came to examine a school a second or third time, both masters and scholars were familiar with the groove that he ran in, and answered better than they did upon his first visit. It was capable almost of being demonstrated that if the number of pupil-teachers had gone on accumulating in the former ratio, there would very soon have been an excess. Whether the large diminution which had now taken place went beyond what the circumstances of the country and the waste which naturally took place required, time alone would show. Allusion had been made to the Report of the Committee. As it happened, there was no actual Report from the Committee, but a draft Report drawn up by his right hon. Friend the First Lord of the Admiralty had been circulated. Among Members of the House the circumstances were very well known, but as three or four Members of the present Cabinet had been Members of that Committee, it was well that the country should know that they were not in any way pledged to that Report, which was simply the Report of his right hon. Friend the President of that Committee. He wished he could agree with the sanguine view taken by his hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge, as to the mode in which the educational system was likely to develop itself. There was a decrease, however slight, in every item of the payments except that for Establishment charges. That fact did not look like a great development of the system; and he believed that it 1358 had not developed in proportion to the continued increase of the population. They knew that a great number of young children were counted in at these examinations. In fact, they had got the name of "blessings," being what persons called "certain money," as the payments were made on their account, whether they passed the examination or not. All the assistance which the State could give ought to be given to education; but dependence, in the main, must be placed on the voluntary exertions of the people, and State assistance must be managed so as not to shock the feelings, and especially the religious feelings, of the various parties who contributed by far the greater portion of the educational expenditure of the country. He could assure the right hon. Baronet the First Lord of the Admiralty, that considerable interest was felt in the subject throughout the country; and though they all knew what sort of a thing a draft Report was, yet from the circumstance that it was proposed by a Member of Her Majesty's Government, and that three others of the Committee at least were in the Cabinet, a significance had been attached to it which it did not deserve.
§ SIR JOHN PAKINGTONsaid, he only rose to confirm what had fallen from the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Oxford. The draft Report to which the right hon. Gentleman had referred was not sanctioned, or even for a moment discussed, by the Committee over which he had the honour to preside. The discussion of the Report had been prevented by the accident of the moment, when a change of Government was taking place, and five Member of the House were likely to become Members of the present Government. It was impossible, under the circumstances, at that time to take into consideration a Report of considerable length, and embracing, as hon. Members were aware, a considerable number of subjects, all of them of importance as bearing upon the subject of education. He had had the honour for the last two years of presiding over the Committee, and at the end of that period he had been requested to frame a Report founded upon the evidence which had been adduced, and this he had done to the best of his ability. It was not for him to say whether that Report would have been adopted or rejected. Most probably some portions would have been adopted, while others would have been 1359 rejected. Seeing, however, how impossible it was from the position in which they then were to give the matter the necessary consideration, it was agreed, and he was a party to that agreement, to circulate the draft Report.
§ MR. HUBBARDsaid, he wished to call attention to the reduction in the Building Vote, the difference between that Vote for the present year and for the past year amounting to over £9,000. For the last seven years, the Votes had ranged as follows: — 1859, £137,000; 1860, £118,000; 1861, £106,000; 1862, £66,000; 1863, £42,000; 1864, £28,000; and the last year, £18,800. It might naturally be asked whether such a continued reduction arose from the fact that the demand of education had been satisfied and that applications were not so numerous as heretofore. But that the reduction did not arise from such a cause would be shown from other statistics. The National Society, working in connection with the Church of England, had granted aid in 1859 in building 146 schools; in 1860, 146; 1861, 193; 1862, 148; 1863, 149; 1864, 173; and in the last year, 184. The buildings had, therefore, evidently been on the increase. The cause of the reduction in the amount of the grant was therefore to be looked for in another quarter, and it plainly arose from the operation of the conscience clause, into the results of which he hoped some investigation would be made. By the conscience clause any parent could claim for his child a purely secular education, and Her Majesty's Privy Council had attempted to introduce it into building grants. This circumstance naturally lessened the number of applications made by conscientious builders and by the clergy. He desired to call the attention of the Vice President of the Board of Education to the fact that the conscience clause tended to obstruct instead of to promote the cause of education, and he wished also to urge the adoption of some system of education more in harmony with the religious feelings of school builders, and more in harmony, too, with Resolutions which had been passed by that House.
§ MR. WHALLEYsaid, he had to complain that a large sum of money was annually enpended in circulating Roman Catholic publications in some of our Church of England schools. He should never enter into any question of doc- 1360 trine, but he hoped that the right hon. Gentleman at the head of this Department would not ignore any part of our political history. There were some things to be taught even under a religious system, and some systems of religion were antagonistic to the social well-being and polity of the country. The History of England which was employed in the Government schools was one which justified the punishments inflicted by Queen Mary, and which extolled the heroism of Guy Fawkes and his co-conspirators, much after the fashion that was adopted even by some hon. Members of praising the heroism of the Fenians.
§ MR. POWELLasked when the Report of the Commission on Education in Scotland would be published; and whether it would be accompanied by the evidence?
§ MR. KINNAIRDasked whether it was intended to continue the grant to the night schools. It had been productive of much benefit, and it would be satisfactory to know if it would be continued and increased according to the demands?
MR. CORRYsaid, it was intended to continue-the grant to the night schools, which he believed were very valuable, and the Report on Scotch Education would, he was informed, be ready by next Session, and would be laid on the table along with the evidence.
§ MR. WHALLEYsaid, he hoped that the right hon. Gentleman would reply to his inquiry. The right hon. Gentleman was about to answer his question, but was restrained by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who, however, had himself once stated that the whole energies of the Roman Catholic priesthood were directed to the destruction of the polity and, as far as necessary, of the Empire of England, and had said, "this foreign priesthood is the sirocco breath under which the fame and influence of England are fast withering."
MR. CORRYsaid, he had merely to observe that he did not think it was a part of his duty to inquire into the description of religious education given to Roman Catholic children, or to children of any other religious denomination in the schools receiving public grants. The matter was one for the inspectors, who are alone responsible.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ House resumed.
§ Resolutions to be reported To-morrow.
§ Committee to sit again upon Wednesday.