§ MR. O'REILLYsaid, he rose to call attention to the propriety of extending the advantages of the Saturday half-holiday to those branches of the Civil Service which do not yet enjoy it; and to ask what steps have been taken by the Government relative to the Report on the subject laid before the late Premier by the Commission appointed to report on the subject. Of late years a moderate diminution of labour and increase of holidays had found favour not only with the employed, but also with their employers. The Saturday half-holiday movement had especially extended in every direction, and had been attended, according to general testimony, by the most advantageous results. It was no exaggeration to say that the Volunteers owed much of their present efficiency to the extension of this movement; nor would it be too much to maintain that its abolition would result in the almost total annihilation of our Volunteer force. As an instance of the manner in which this holiday was extending, he might mention the fact that the Underwriters' Rooms at Lloyd's were now closed at two o'clock on Saturdays, and most of the great railway companies of this country relieved their clerks as far as possible from their labour on the Saturday afternoon. In several of the public departments the holiday had already been granted. The clerks at the Post Office left off at one, and those in the Audit Office, for a great length of time, 173 had been freed at two, and in answer to a question which he asked in that House three years ago, it was stated that by the Saturday half-holiday in the Post Office the efficiency of the public service in that Department had been promoted, while the expense had not been increased. In several of the West End offices the holiday was to some extent practically granted, a part only of the clerks being compelled to remain in rotation. He was not, however, advocating the claims of young gentlemen in the West End offices; he was urging upon the Government the title which some of the hardest worked and worst paid of the public servants, those in the Customs and Revenue Departments especially, had to this slight relief. It was objected by some that the diminution of the hours of labour consequent upon the extension of this half-holiday would necessarily increase the public expenditure, but the only answer he had to make to that objection was that experience itself refuted the argument, be cause it had always been found that a diminution in the hours of labour had not been attended by a proportionate diminution in the amount of work produced, Then, again, it was objected that the clerks employed in the public service received six weeks or two months' leave in the course of the year. That objection might apply to the offices in the West End, but he questioned whether all the clerks in the Customs and other similar offices had as much leave of absence as those in the West End offices. The objection raised to the proposal to close the Foreign Office or the Home Office on Saturday afternoons on occasions of political importance did not apply, he thought, to the whole of the offices.
§ MR. CHILDERSthought the matter one of importance and of interest to the country at large, as well as to those more immediately concerned. But the question raised was also one of much difficulty, and he thought the House should pause before it adopted any Resolution upon the matter. He agreed with his hon. and gallant Friend as to the efficiency of the Civil Service clerks. He believed it was the opinion of all those who had inquired into the matter that the business of the country was well done, and that any arrangement for the future should be based upon the consideration that they had a good body of men who deserved encouragement. But he did not think the Civil Service as a whole was overworked. His hon. and gallant Friend 174 expressed the opinion, as he understood him, that it would be practicable, as far as the business of public offices generally was concerned, and only just to the clerks, to reduce their hours of work on Saturday; and also that to do so would not add to the public expenditure. On this he would say at once, that if public officers have full employment, working till four or five o'clock, it would in the great majority of cases be utterly impossible to do with the same number of persons if only to be employed on one day in the week till one o'clock. But irrespective of the mere question of cost, there was that of convenience both in the administration of Government and to those who had dealings with Government from outside. For instance, neither his hon. and gallant Friend nor any Member of the House would desire to see any of the offices of the Secretaries of State closed on a Saturday, because as much important political business was transacted on Saturdays as on other days. That he understood his hon. and gallant Friend did not propose. [Mr. O'REILLY, however, said he did propose it.] He would say that it was impossible to accede to such a proposal. He had been able to find no trace of the Royal Commission to which his hon. Friend had alluded, but a conference of the heads of the different Departments took place, and they were unanimous in the opinion that a general half-holiday could not be decided upon applicable to all Departments. The question then remained as to whether the Inland Revenue and other similar Offices could close on Saturdays at one instead of at four, as at present. The answer to that question depended upon the public. If merchants and other men of business would agree uniformly, and not simply by a majority, to close their houses at twelve or one on Saturdays, then those Government Offices which transacted business with the public might be able to do the same. But at present the objection that merchants and traders would be obstructed in carrying on their business if all the Government Offices were closed on Saturday afternoons was a fatal one. In order to see what, if any, diminution in the hours of work should be granted, in justice to the Government clerks, he had caused inquiry to be made at several large offices in the City and elsewhere as to the number of hours the clerks were employed, and the holidays they were allowed. He found that one of the largest Railway Companies em- 175 ployed their clerks from nine to five, except on Saturdays, when they ceased work at one. They were allowed half-an-hour during that time for refreshment, and fourteen days' holiday during the year. Thus they were employed for forty-four hours every week in the year except the fourteen days, and Good Friday and Christmas Day. The clerks of the Bank of England were employed from nine to four, with the exception of an hour for their dinner, but on Saturdays they closed at three. The ordinary clerks were also allowed eighteen days' holiday during the year. One of the largest London Shipping Companies, which employed more clerks than any other office but one in the City at the present time, required their clerks to serve from ten to four every day, and to a later hour during their busy times. They worked two hours less, however, on Saturday, and had three weeks' holiday during the year. The clerks of the largest Joint-Stock Bank were employed for forty-seven hours during the week, and were allowed fourteen days' holiday for the ordinary and three weeks for the superior clerks. The Insurance Companies employed their clerks from ten till four, and besides required them occasionally to work overtime. These clerks had two weeks or three weeks' holiday, in accordance to the class to which they belonged. From these figures it was evident that, although the clerks in the Government Offices were required to work from ten to four, they had a much longer holiday than the clerks of large Companies in the City. The clerks of the Inland Revenue Office, one of the largest of its kind, were allowed at least twenty-eight days' and some forty days' holiday. The clerks of the Customs Office were allowed thirty-two days, or five or six weeks. The Post Office clerks had only a months' leave, but some of them had the half-holidays to which his hon. Friend had alluded. The conclusion he drew from the whole circumstances of the case was, that if it were possible consistently with the requirements of merchants and traders to close the public offices earlier on Saturdays, at would be at the same time absolutely necessary to curtail the leave of absence at present given for four, five, or six weeks during the year. He assured his hon. Friend that the great majority of clerks in public offices were continuously employed during the hours of business, and that their continuous employment was well watched. He did not hesitate to say that 176 the deduction of two hours a week from the time the clerks were occupied would necessitate either an additional number of officers, or that they should be kept at work during the period they usually took for their holidays. His hon. Friend had quoted the Audit Office, where a certain relaxation from work on Saturday was allowed; but it was the peculiar character of the business that rendered this possible in that Office. They had no dealings with any but public officers. The fact was, that no general rule could be laid down, and the matter must be left to the discretion of the heads of the departments. In the departments under the Treasury it was left to the superior officers to arrange the question of holidays in the best way they could, with the understanding that leave of absence on Saturdays should be given to as many as possible in every department. This plan operated well in all the larger departments, with which he was best acquainted; and he believed that it worked well in all the small departments. He hoped his hon. Friend would not press upon the Government the adoption of a universal arrangement, because that would lead to considerable inconvenience.
§ MR. KINNAIRDasked whether any Report had been presented on the subject, and whether it would be laid upon the table of the House? Had the Secretary to the Treasury listened to the observations of his hon. Friend below the gangway, he would have seen that he did not press upon the Government the desirability of curtailing the hours of employment at the offices at Whitehall or the West End; because, although the clerks in those offices were often detained late, particularly during the Session of Parliament, they, as it were, compensated themselves by coming to business so much later in the morning. He understood the Secretary to the Treasury to say that instructions had been given to the heads of the departments to use their own discretion in the matter. Now, there were certain periods in the year, as there were in every business, when such indulgence as that desired might be granted to those employed without any sort of inconvenience to the public service. He was fully convinced that a general rule applicable to every department could not be issued; but he would impress upon the Government the duty of giving instructions that every indulgence should be granted to the clerks when circumstances permitted. 177 It was perfectly well known that where a liberal spirit prevailed, and indulgence from time to time was granted, it had the effect of inspiring the clerks to make additional effort; and he was quite sure that they would not permit the public service to suffer on account of any indulgence granted to them.
§ MR. O'REILLYasked whether the Secretary to the Treasury had stated that power had been given to the heads of the different departments to grant a half-holiday when it could be done without any detriment to the public service?
§ MR. CHILDERSsaid, that according to the present rule a half-holiday would be granted to a certain number of the clerks when no inconvenience would result from such a course.