HC Deb 30 April 1866 vol 183 cc196-209

(15.) £53,421, to complete the sum for the Houses of Parliament.

MR. AYRTON

observed that, notwithstanding the enormous expenditure for coals for the Houses of Parliament, the House of Commons remained about the worst ventilated room in which he ever had the good or ill fortune to sit. The atmosphere was particularly cold when it should be warm and was particularly warm when it should be cool. The bad effect of the air upon Members was such that they had continually to leave the House, and "a House of Commons headache" had become almost proverbial. That headache was supposed by some to be produced by the amount of gas burnt in the building, but the cause of this distressing malady was that the cold air was pumped in on the feet and legs, by which process the blood was forced into the head and the result was a violent headache. It was useless to have his seat pasted up and made comfortable, as the rush for seats in the new House of Commons was so great that a comfortable seat would be sure to be seized on. Hon. Members were obliged to leave their places to go and stand by the fire to warm themselves. That had been the state of things for the first two months of the Session ever since he had been in that House. The Speaker had, he supposed, succumbed at last to these evils, and it was to be hoped that something would now be done to remedy them. Those who sat on the Treasury Bench were, of course, not so much afflicted by these inconveniences, because they seemed to be so very crowded that they kept each other warm—to say nothing of the effect of official zeal and other considerations which he need not more particularly mention. But those who sat below the gangway suffered far more seriously; and before they met again in another Session the ventilation of the House ought to be placed in a more satisfactory condition. The system of lighting that House was also defective, and it contrasted unfavourably with the mode adopted in the other House of Parliament. In the ceiling there was a dull, opaque light, between which and the House a screen was interposed, so as to produce an atmosphere like that of London streets on a dismal November day. That was a state of things disgraceful to those who were responsible for it.

MR. CHILDERS

had never known till then the meaning of the phrase as to some hon. Members being "out in the cold;" but no doubt the complaints which the hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets had just made would receive the attention of the officials charged with the ventilation and other arrangements of the House. Care would be taken to communicate with them on these matters.

Vote agreed to.

(16.) £38,432, to complete the sum for the Treasury.

(17.) £19,471, to complete the sum for the Home Office.

(18.) £47,840, to complete the sum for the Foreign Office.

(19.) £23,124, to complete the sum for the Colonial Office.

(20.) £14,739, to complete the sum for the Privy Council Office.

(21.) £48,285, to complete the sum for the Board of Trade, &c.

(22.) £1,938, to complete the sum for the Privy Seal Office.

(23.) £6,007, to complete the sum for the Civil Service Commission.

(24.) £14,558, to complete the sum for the Paymaster General's Office.

(25.) £3,558, to complete the sum for the Exchequer (London).

(26.) £24,226, to complete the sum for Office of Works and Public Buildings.

(27.) £20,815, to complete the sum for Office of Woods, Forests, and Land Revenues.

In reply to a Question from Mr. GOLDNEY,

MR. CHILDERS

said, it was the wish of the Government as far as possible to substitute payment by salary instead of by bill to the solicitors employed in this department, as being a more economical arrangement.

Vote agreed to.

(28.) £16,119, to complete the sum for the Public Record Office.

(29.) £222,984, to complete the sum for the Poor Law Commissions.

MR. GOLDNEY

thought that the sums allowed to the Inspectors for travelling expenses—£600 each per annum—were excessive. Considering the nature of the duties performed, he believed that, as a rule, the visit of an Inspector to a workhouse took place about once in two years.

MR. CHILDERS

said, that when he first saw the amounts placed under that head he held an opinion similar to that which had fallen from the hon. Member for Chippenham. He found, however, on inquiry, that the amounts were perfectly justifiable, and, not as he at first supposed, excessive.

Vote agreed to.

(30.) £36,182, to complete the sum for the Mint, including Coinage.

(31.) £29,462, to complete the sum for Inspectors of Factories, Fisheries, &c.

(32.) £4,242, to complete the sum for Exchequer and other Offices in Scotland.

(33.) £4,413, to complete the sum for Household of the Lord Lieutenant, Ireland.

(34.) £11,667, to complete the sum for the Chief Secretary, Ireland, Offices.

(35.) £17,906, to complete the sum for the Office of Public Works, Ireland.

(36.) £28,866, to complete the sum for the Audit Office.

SIR COLMAN O'LOGHLEN

thought it would be advisable to establish a branch Audit Office in Dublin for Irish business, by which means the delay and the expense attendant upon the transmissions of all documents to London would be obviated.

MR. CHILDERS

said, that for some years past the business of this department had gradually been more and more concentrated, and he could not promise the hon. and learned Baronet that such a provision as he suggested should be included in any legislation during the present Session.

Vote agreed to.

(37.) £14,107, to complete the sum for the Copyhold, Tithe, and Inclosure Commission.

MR. GOLDNEY

remarked that the work of the Commission for which the Vote was required had virtually come to an end, except that it had occasionally to supply information to the public. He thought the Vote was, therefore, excessive.

MR. SCOURFIELD

recommended an increase in the sums charged by the Office. An eminent person connected with the Court of Chancery had expressed surprise to him at the moderation of their fees on an occasion when he had effected an exchange of land through the Commission. He had also heard that the Commissioners were very deficient in fire-proof rooms.

MR. CHILDERS

said, he was not aware that the Commissioners were deficient in fire-proof rooms; and with respect to the objection raised to the following Vote, he explained that the whole amount was paid back into the Exchequer every year.

Vote agreed to.

(38.) £8,890, to complete the sum for Inclosure and Drainage Acts, Imprest Expenses.

(39.) £49,796, to complete the sum for the General Register Offices.

(40.) £11,253, to complete the sum for the National Debt Office.

(41.) £2,935, to complete the sum for Public Works Loan and West India Islands Relief Commissions.

(42.) £9,735, to complete the sum for Lunacy Commissions, &c.

MR. SCOURFIELD

was about to make some observations, when an hon. Member moved that the House be counted. More than forty Members were, however, speedily gathered in the House, and the hon. Member proceeded to state that he had heard very general dissatisfaction expressed at the fact that the Board of Lunacy Commissioners was not directly responsible to the House. He had noticed that any department so situated invariably became unpopular. It was so with the Poor Law Board before the present arrangement was come to.

SIR BROOK BRIDGES

said, at this meeting, attended by chairmen from all parts of the country, there was not found one to defend the constitution of the Board; and he thought the subject should receive the attention of the Government.

MR. CHILDERS

said, that the whole question of the constitution of the Lunacy Commissions for the three kingdoms was deserving of consideration. In Ireland the Lunacy Commission took charge of the administration of lunatics altogether. The Scotch system had not been long enough in operation to enable the Government to say whether it was better than the others, but in a short time it would probably be the duty of the Government to make some inquiry into the subject.

Vote agreed to.

(43.) £223, to complete the sum for the Superintendent of Roads, South Wales.

MR. WHITE

said, he believed these roads had been taken under the charge of the Government, and the tolls on them were abolished in consequence of the Rebecca riots. He wondered whether any Rebecca riots in the neighbourhood of London would have the same effect. He wished to know what proportion the costs of inspection were to the whole sum disbursed?

MR. CHILDERS

was not in a position to give the exact percentage, but it was extremely small.

MR. SCOURFIELD

bore testimony to the excellent way in which the South Wales roads were managed, first by Colonel Harness, and more recently by General Wrotham.

Vote agreed to.

(44.) £1,404, to complete the sum for Registrars of Friendly Societies.

MR. REARDEN

wished to know how it was that the Registrar General of England had a salary of £1,000 a year, while the Registrars General of Scotland and Ireland had only salaries amounting to £150 a year each.

MR. CHILDERS

explained that the duties of the Registrars General of Scot land and Ireland were little more than nominal, while every one knew that the duties of the Registrar General of England were varied and onerous.

Vote agreed to.

(45.) £13,673, to complete the sum for the Charity Commission.

MR. GOLDNEY

said, as far as he knew the duties of this Commission were not very onerous. They consisted principally in receiving reports from the managers of the various charities, and in granting or refusing applications for the exchange of lands. This was another instance of a case where a Commission was much needed in the first instance and did good work, but which was continued after all need for it had ceased.

MR. ACLAND

said, he had in various ways, especially in connection with the work of education, been brought into contact with the Charity Commissioners, and he differed from the hon. Gentleman who bad just sat down. He believed that their duties were very heavy, and required great tact, skill, and industry. For instance, they were often called to settle a scheme of education for a school, or for the details of management of another charity, in cases which were not contentious, and the decision required great care and deliberation. He had been connected with a charity school in his own county where reference was made to them, and the correspondence in that case was exceedingly voluminous, and was conducted by the Commissioners with great punctuality and attention.

MR. AYRTON

stated that the question under the consideration of the Committee was discussed some years ago, when the Government promised to bring forward a scheme by which charitable funds should be subject to a certain percentage, so as to cover the expense of the Commission, It was difficult to understand why a Commission instituted for the purpose of ministering to the follies of people who in former times left money for charity should be maintained at the public expense. The money these people had left ought to defray all the expenses connected with its administration. Those charitable funds had no right to receive one farthing from the public Exchequer, for the origin of most of them was the gratification of an extremely idle vanity.

SIR BROOK BRIDGES

said, that he thought few hon. Members would coincide in the views of the hon. and learned Member who had just sat down as to the character of English charities. He believed that those charities constituted one of the most magnificent features of the country. He experienced the greatest possible gratitude towards those who had in former times set aside portions of their wealth for the public benefit, and he did not think it unreasonable that a Commission should be appointed in order to check the management of charitable bequests. It was to the interest of this great country that such funds should be properly administered, and he believed that the Charity Commissioners exercised a salutary influence on the trustees.

MR. POLLARD-URQUHART

questioned the propriety of burdening the country with the cost of a Commission for the purpose of looking after the property of any individual; and he observed that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had shown that it was very doubtful whether these charities did more harm or more good.

MR. CHILDERS

said, he would not enter into the question whether the charities referred to were good or bad, but he would state that the charges of the Commission, when the duties discharged by it were fully considered, did not appear excessive. With regard to the desirability of recovering the expense of the Commission by charges on charitable funds, he thought that was a question worthy of consideration, and he would ascertain what inquiry had been made by the Government into that matter previous to his entering the office he now held.

MR. GOLDNEY

thought that more Commissioners were employed than were necessary to discharge the work devolving upon them.

MR. CHILDERS

did not concur with the hon. Member for Chippenham, and stated again that the charges of the Commission were not excessive.

Vote agreed to.

(46.) £4,835, to complete the sum for the Local Government Act Office, &c.

(47.) £1,399, to complete the sum for the Landed Estates Record Offices, London and Dublin.

(48.) £444, to complete the sum for the Quarantine Establishment.

MR. BENTINCK

desired to know what were the duties of the officers on board the quarantine hulks, when, owing to the absence of disease or of an epidemic of any kind, a state of quarantine was unnecessary.

MR. CHILDERS

said, this establishment was but a skeleton, and formed one of the smallest which could be kept up if it was the intention of Parliament to maintain quarantine. There were differences of opinion upon that subject, but at present Parliament retained the system, and made the Privy Council responsible for its observance. Under these circumstances, it would not be prudent to dispense with this Vote. As long as Parliament thought fit to make Government responsible, if anything were to happen which could be prevented by quarantine, the House would be very indignant if there should be any neglect on the part of the authorities. The sum that was asked, £444, was not very large.

GENERAL DUNNE

said, he did not think the House knew why this establishment was kept up. He had been in countries where quarantine was carried out with great strictness, but he should like to ask how quarantine was to be applied here. In the Mediterranean, and wherever quarantine was carried out efficiently, there are officers in each port to examine every ship. But what organization was there in this country to carry quarantine regulations into effect? The rinderpest had been imported, and so might cholera at any time. In Bristol, the other day, a man had been brought in stricken down with cholera. There was no organization in this country which for one moment could keep put such a disease as cholera, which was now impending. As long as we had free trade, and men could enter the country without any difficulty whatever, a Vote of £444 would not keep out contagious disease.

MR. AYRTON

wanted an explanation of this item. In Loudon the expenditure under this head was only £20, notwithstanding the number of persons that arrived there and the vast trade which it carried on. At Portsmouth, where nobody arrived, £800 was expended on the establishment, which consisted of eight mariners doing nothing, one mate looking after them, and one superintendent. At Rochester, where nobody went except at a general election, there was a mate looking after four ma- riners, and the expenditure amounted to £369; and at Southampton, where people did land, there were no mariners, mate, or superintendent, but there was a medical officer, who could be of no use without mariners to attend to the vessels on their arrival. In fact, from the nature of the expenditure, the whole thing was what might be familiarly described as a little job.

MR. CHILDERS

said, the superintendent, mate, and mariners at Portsmouth formed the crew of the hulk stationed in the Solent to receive persons from ships coming from abroad in a dangerous condition. The officer at Southampton was a medical superintendent, and it was his duty to visit ships coming from abroad and to send persons who might be suffering from dangerous diseases to the hulk at Portsmouth. The same was the case with the hulk at Rochester, which received invalids from vessels off the Nore. He could not give a satisfactory explanation just then of the small expenditure in London, but he should look into the subject.

MR. POLLARD-URQUHART

hoped the Government would not give up the quarantine establishment, as it might be made a most useful instrument for the prevention of disease. At Odessa and the towns north of the Black Sea, where plague used to rage at one time, quarantine had been established during the last thirty years and there was no plague there now. The same was the case at Constantinople; where as soon as they introduced a strict system of quarantine the plague came to an end. In Malta the system was attended with similar success. With such undeniable facts before us we ought not to be in a hurry to abandon quarantine in deference to some new-fangled notions.

MR. CANDLISH

said, the sum asked for was either too much or too little—one or other conclusion was inevitable. In the northern ports there were no quarantine establishments at all. He considered that this subject called for the attention of the Executive before they prepared another Vote for the approval of that House.

MR. SANDFORD

said, that was a proper occasion for asking the Government what course as to the enforcement of quarantine regulations they intended to take with regard to the impending visitation of cholera. He would remind the House that last year when cholera was raging along the Mediterranean, Sicily, which, from the filthy habits of the people, was of all places that which cholera was likely to devastate, was guarded by a strict quarantine, and the consequence was that the island was entirely exempt. He had seen in a blue book, which had been laid upon the table of the House, that the authorities in that island invariably adopted a system of regulations which would deserve the attention of Her Majesty's Government in case this country were to be visited. He did not know what the Government were doing in this matter, but he hoped some Member of it would rise and explain the nature of the precautions which they in-tended to take.

GENERAL DUNNE

thought that this Vote ought to be seriously discussed by the Committee. If the cholera was approaching much more effectual measures should be taken than this Vote would allow. If the whole of the ports of the United Kingdom were left open, with the exception of Rochester and Portsmouth, there was, in point of fact, no quarantine at all. Liverpool and the other great trading ports, not to speak of Ireland, which seemed never to be thought of, were all left open to the disease. There ought to be a medical officer in every port to inspect vessels coming in. He had seen at Zante four men hanged by Sir Thomas Maitland for breaking the quarantine regulations. He did not wish to see such a stringent exercise of the law in this country; but it was just now of peculiar importance that stringent quarantine regulations should be enforced, if it were true that the cholera had arrived in Holland and was likely to visit these shores. He hoped, then, the Committee would be informed what precautions were to be taken, and why Portsmouth and Rochester should be sealed while all the other ports were left open.

MR. CHILDERS

said, the hulks in the Medway and the Solent were, as he had stated, for the reception of persons afflicted with certain dangerous diseases who might arrive in the Thames or at Southampton, and £200 a year for medical attendance at the latter place was money well laid out; for a very large number of persons arrived at Southampton, and it was desirable that they should be looked after. As ports were known to be infected, no doubt they would be proclaimed. The Privy Council was armed with very great powers, and when the time should come for their exercise proper precautions would be taken. He was sorry he had no authority to answer the question put by the hon. Member for Maldon. His right hon. Friend (Mr. Bruce) who had charge of such matters was, unfortunately, absent in consequence of family affliction.

MR. SANDFORD

inquired whether Rotterdam had been proclaimed.

MR. CHILDERS

said, he was uncertain of the fact, but he thought not.

MR. BRADY

said, that the great means of preventing the invasion of cholera was the establishment of a permament board of medical officers, who should have power to carry out a proper system of quarantine in the different ports of the kingdom. When the cattle disease was in its most dangerous stage Government appointed officers to examine the cattle on their being landed, and surely where the lives of men were imperilled they might show some extra zeal for the preservation of the public health.

MR. BENTINCK

regretted that the Secretary to the Treasury had failed to answer a question of considerable importance that he had put—namely, what the officials who had charge of the hulks did when there were no sick persons on board? It was but seldom necessary that persons afflicted with disease should be sent to these hulks. He entirely agreed with the observation of the hon. Member for Sunderland that this expenditure was either too much or too little. He hoped the hon. Gentleman would take the earliest opportunity of informing himself or of refreshing his memory on the subject. As to the financial reformers, he hoped the hon. Member for Brighton (Mr. White), who had made a financial speech on a former occasion, and other Gentlemen who had spoke in favour of economy, would attend when the Votes were under discussion, and step by step endeavour to reduce the public expenditure.

MR. CHILDERS

admitted that the subject was one which be had not very much studied; but he promised that the matter should be looked into, and he hoped to be able to answer the hon. and learned Gentleman in a few days.

Vote agreed to.

(49.) £24,000, to complete the sum for Secret Service.

MR. WHITE

observed, that in the case of other Estimates they often found there was a balance not disposed of; but he had never known anything to be returned out of the amount voted for secret service. How was it that use was always found for the entire sum taken in this Vote?

Vote agreed to.

(50.) £267,087, to complete the sum for Printing and Stationery.

MR. GOLDNEY

expressed his opinion that a very large sum might be saved in the expenditure on Parliamentary Returns. Hon. Members must know that frequently a very large expense was incurred for Returns, giving details which were already in the possession of the House. He stated that he believed that a saving of £20,000 could be effected in this way, and he would recommend that for this object there should be some supervision of this outlay on the part of the Government.

MR. CHILDERS

agreed with the hon. Member that it would be most desirable to limit the number of those Returns; but there was very great difficulty in the way of the Government interfering in the matter. If the Government attempted to interfere with a Member when he called for a Return, it would be supposed that there was something to conceal, and that under the plea of economy the Government sought to keep back information. But if hon. Members before moving for Returns would be good enough to inquire whether the information which they sought to obtain was not already to be found in other papers, a considerable saving might be effected. In illustration of this, he might observe that some time ago an hon. Member came to him and showed him a copy of a Motion which he proposed to make for a Return. That Return would have cost £500; but he was able to show the hon. Gentleman that by means of Returns already granted by Parliament, the information which he required might be drawn up on a small sheet of paper. The Printing Committee could no doubt prevent a good deal of unnecessary printing, but he felt convinced that it was in the power of hon. Members to effect a very considerable economy in this item of the public expenditure. It was, however, worthy of remark that the House of Commons spent much less on Returns than Congress in America did. He believed the reason of this was that Congress printed for the constituencies, while the House of Commons generally printed for itself. At the same time, he repeated that a considerable saving might be effected if hon. Members made closer inquiries before moving for Returns.

SIR WILLIAM HEATHCOTE

observed, that the greater number of the Returns ordered by that House were unopposed Returns. If the various Departments of the Government did what the hon. Gentleman the Secretary of the Treasury (Mr. Childers) did in the case which he had mentioned, hon. Members intending to move for Returns would be shown that in many cases those Returns were unnecessary, and there would thus be a considerable check upon unnecessary printing, without any imputation of a desire to refuse information being incurred.

MR. REARDEN

remarked that the sum spent for printing having reference to Ireland was disproportionately small as compared with the amounts expended for English and Scotch purposes.

MR. BARNETT

observed, that hon. Members were overwhelmed with the immense amount of papers which were delivered at their houses every day. He could scarcely imagine that many of these papers, such as those which related to Railway and Canal Bills were required by Members, and therefore he presumed that many of them must be furnished by direction of the Printing Committee.

GENERAL DUNNE

said, that ever since he had been in the House he had been accustomed to discussions upon the subject of printed Returns. Members were constantly led to move for them at the instance of individuals, and frequently it turned out that the object in view was personal and not public. It would be well if any hon. Member who was thus set in motion insisted upon knowing with what object the information was sought. He observed that under the head of "Correspondence" as large an amount was claimed for the Irish police as for all the military forces in Ireland. This, he thought, required some explanation, and generally he was of opinion that the official correspondence ought to be subject to supervision with a view to reducing its expenditure and bulk.

MR. CHILDERS

quite agreed with his hon. and gallant Friend that the apparently trifling expenses of individual stations swelled into something very large when multiplied by the number of establishments maintained by us in all parts of the world. And it would be well, he thought, if the heads of departments could agree upon some uniform principle of action. Meanwhile, as to the general control, the Executive had done their best by appointing a controller of stationery, whose interference to his own knowledge in the short interval that he had been connected with the Treasury, had checked expenditure to a large amount that otherwise would have taken place without anyone being the wiser.

Vote agreed to.

(51.)£113,020, to complete the sum for Postage of Public Departments.