HC Deb 24 April 1866 vol 182 cc2009-11

Bill considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

Clauses 9 to 14 agreed to.

Clause 15,

MR. AYRTON

called attention to its language, according to which, he said, Ways and Means were to be granted by Resolution without an Act of Parliament. The clause would allow the Treasury without the sanction of Parliament, to take possession of money and dispose of it as they liked.

MR. CHILDERS

replied that this was the state of things at present, and practically it was the only possible state of things.

Clause agreed to.

Clauses 16 and 17 agreed to.

Clause 18,

MR. E. CRAUFURD

objected to the Controller being made co-ordinate with the other officer, and stated that there was a possibility of there being a divided opinion in the Report the clause directed should be presented to the House. He thought justice had not been done to the Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Childers) for the way in which he had watched over the great principle of the Bill, which enabled the House to stop the supplies whenever circumstances required the adoption of such a course; and the House owed him a great debt of gratitude for the attention he had given to the subject.

SIR COLMAN O'LOGHLEN

did not see how, in certain circumstances, the Report could be made a joint Report from the officers named in the clause. The Bill stated that there was to be a Report made and signed by two officers; but if they were to differ in opinion he did not see how this could be done.

MR. HENLEY

said, that the clause, in the way he read it, unless amended would bring things to a dead lock, and the result would probably be that the House would get no Report at all. He could not see that it was necessary that the Controller and Auditor General should be aided by the Assistant Controller and Auditor in drawing up the Report; but if it were to be so, the words "jointly or separately" should be inserted in the clause, so as to insure a Report from one of them.

MR. CHILDERS

said, he could not take credit for all that the hon. Member for Ayr had said regarding the preservation of the great principle of the Bill. It was true that the Bill when originally proposed did not contemplate the aid of the Assistant Controller in the matter; but after a full inquiry it was deemed advisable to follow the example of public companies, and appoint two auditors. In discussing the subject a variety of questions arose, and, as it was believed that no work would be done unless the responsibility were fixed upon one individual, it was agreed that a head officer should be appointed in whom the Parliament could place confidence, and that he should be well paid and have power to make rules for the discipline of his office. There would, however, be no objection to introduce the words proposed by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Oxford-shire, and with that Amendment he trusted the clause would be agreed to.

MR. WHALLEY

was of opinion that, as the clause now stood, the difficulty anticipated by the hon. Gentleman could not possibly arise. The clause did not say that the Controller General and the Assistant Auditor were to report unanimously. They might, therefore, as it appeared to him, express their separate opinions in the Report.

MR. E. CRAUFURD

said, his object was that, though the whole responsibility rested upon the Controller General, the Assistant Controller would be brought in upon equal terms with him when the Report was made to the House. He therefore moved the omission of the words "the Assistant Controller and Auditor."

MR. HENLEY

could not vote for the Amendment, the effect of which, taken in conjunction with the eighth clause, would be that the Controller General might leave the Report to be made by the Assistant Controller alone. The House, in that event, would only get a Report from the less responsible officer.

MR. CHILDERS

said, he would take care that words should be inserted in order to prevent the possibility, in case of a dif- ference of opinion, of separate Reports being made.

Amendment negatived.

Clause agreed to.

Clauses 18 to 26 agreed to.

Remaining clauses agreed to.

House resumed.

Bill reported; as amended, to be considered upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 120.]