§ Order for Committee read.
§ Acts read; considered in Committee.
§ (In the Committee.)
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, he rose to state the effect of certain Resolutions which would have been moved before the vacation hut for the unexpected curtailment of the sitting of the House on the last evening. The Resolutions were five in number, and formed the preliminary operation necessary for the introduction of a Bill to give effect to them. The two first constituted the principal matter and occasion of the Act he proposed to introduce; but there would be several provisions in the Act of secondary importance which it was not necessary to refer to now. There was one provision, however, not of very great importance in effect, except as to its bearing on the local convenience of a portion of the community, and on the express desire of that House; and that related to the forestal rights of the Crown in Epping Forest, The effect of the provision would be to carry over the supervision of those forestal rights from the Office of Woods to the Office of Works. The Office of Woods was appointed for the management of property, and whatever expenses were undertaken by that office ought to be expenses which had a view simply to the good management of the properly. Within that definition the Department was not able to take any steps such as were desired by the House in 959 reference to the forestal rights of Epping Forest. By the management of those rights being placed in the Office of Works, the Government would be in a condition, without any legal limitation, to make any proposal to the House in respect to them in the same manner as any other proposal with regard to any public charge under the care of the Office of Works. The two first Resolutions which he intended to move had an important hearing on the system of management of the Crown lands. That was regulated by an Act passed in 1829; but since then an important and beneficial change had been introduced into the law of the country with respect to the management of settled estates, the general operation of which was good both to the tenant for life and to the reversioner, and the Government were desirous, by the application of similar principles to the case of the Crown lands, to bring about similar results, and a more full development of the capabilities of the estates. He apprehended that the effect of these provisions would be very decidedly beneficial to the public and likewise to the successor to the Crown, the advantage being divided between both parties. The first Resolution authorized that the costs of improvement within the meaning of the Improvement of Lands Act (1864) might from time to time be charged to the capital of the land revenues of the Crown. Now, with regard to the Duchy of Lancaster, the costs of improvement were at present charged to capital absolutely, and in the case of the Duchy of Cornwall, they were charged to capital with repayment in thirty years. Under the Improvement of Lands Act they were charged to capital with repayment in twenty-five years. The operation of the present system was that the public administered these Crown estates on very liberal principles, and paid very liberally out of the incomes for the improvements. There were certain improvements so called, but which really amounted more to the creation of property than to improvements of property. There was a case of improvement of property in the Isle of Man belonging to the Crown, but the cost of the improvement was so enormous in reference to the present state of value that the Government was not justified in meeting it out of the annual income of the Crown estate. Consequently, in that case the principle which was recognized by Parliament in the Improvement of Lands Act, as being beneficial as regards settled es- 960 tates, both to the tenant for life and the reversioner, would not hold good, as the immediate and greater shrae of the benefit would be reaped by the public. The second Resolution which he intended to move proposed that one moiety of the net income of the Crown land revenues from mines, quarries, and mineral substances should be from time to time carried to the account of the capital of the said land revenues. By the Act which the Government desired to amend, the scale in this respect was weighted the other way, the whole proceeds of the minerals going to the tenant for life. That was not a desirable or satisfactory arrangement. The rate at which minerals were to be obtained was a matter which ought to be left to be governed simply by commercial considerations. The third Resolution opened an entirely distinct question, but one which had been frequently discussed in that House. It was prepared with reference to the foreshores, which formed a subject of discussion and of conflicting claims between the Crown and local parties. In the opinion of the Government the purchase of these rights would be a great advantage, and as the Crown estates owed a very large sum to the public, they thought a convenient method of making the purchase would be by a deduction from the amount of the debt so owing. It was also their opinion that the management of the foreshores might be more properly placed in the hands of the Board of Trade, and it would therefore be transferred from the Commissioners of Crown Lands to that Board. By the fourth Resolution the House were asked to make a concession to the Crown. At present the public were entitled during the lifetime of Her Majesty to the enjoyment and profit of the estate of Claremont. Now, that estate was originally purchased with money supplied from the Crown estates, and it was provided that upon the death of the Princess Charlotte or the King of the Belgians, or the survivor of them, it should revert to the Crown estates. It was, consequently, not the property of the public, though the public had the enjoyment and beneficial use of it for the remainder of Her Majesty's life. That beneficial use was not a very important matter to the public if Claremont remained in its present form. Though it was a beautiful and desirable estate, and a considerable rent might probably be obtained for it, such a rent would not bear any relation to its supposed capi- 961 tal value. That value could only be realized either by its absolute sale, which would, perhaps, be hardly within the spirit of the arrangement between the Crown and the public, or by a still stronger measure—namely, the cutting it up into a multitude of villas. Considering what Claremont had been, and considering the very large pecuniary benefit which the public derived from the voluntary surrender by the late King of the Belgians of his personal interest in it for a long term of years, and his well-known wishes regarding it, the Government did not think it would be a satisfactory course to carve it into a number of small holdings, to be sold as villas at the best price they could fetch in the general market. The other arrangements under the Bill being decidedly beneficial to the public, and having received the approval of the Prince of Wales, the Government felt satisfied that the House would allow the Crown the enjoyment of Claremont during Her Majesty's life. It was not intended thereby to add Claremont to the list of Royal Palaces in the sense of any charge on the public purse, as there would be no charge on the public for its maintenance. Having explained the principal objects of the Bill, as well as the minor one, respecting the forestal rights, which had formed a matter of public interest, it was not necessary for him at the present stage to go more minutely into the subject. He moved the first Resolution—
That the costs of improvements on Crown Lands within the meaning of the Improvement of Lands Act, 1864, may, with the consent of the Commissioners of Her Majesty's Treasury, from time to time be charged to the capital of the Land Revenues of the Crown, subject to such provisions as to repayment as may be prescribed by Parliament.
§ Resolution agreed to.
§
Resolution 2—
That one moiety of the net income of the said Land Revenues from mines, quarries, at mineral substances, be from time to time carried to the account of the capital of the said Land Revenues.
§ Resolution agreed to.
§
Resolution 3—
That in consideration of the transfer to the Board of trade, on behalf of the public, of the management of certain rights of the Crown in tidal lands in the United Kingdom, it is expedient that compensation shall be made to the said Land Revenues for such transfer, in such manner as may be prescribed by parliament.
MR. HENLEYsaid, he supposed that the management of certain rights included the receipt of any profit from them?
§ MR. DARBY GRIFFITHsaid, he understood the proposition to be a sort of adjustment between the property of the Crown and of the public, equalizing a liability on the one hand and a debt on the other. The property of the Crown and certain other matters frequently spoken of were all pure legal fiction, for the property of the Crown had been, since the settlement of 1688, arranged by the Civil List, and the Crown could not possibly resume that property. The foreshore rights were of an uncertain character originally, and had been sometimes exercised in a hostile manner to individuals.
§ MR. CHILDERSsaid, the Government were doing their best to remedy the very grievance of which the hon. Gentleman complained with regard to the foreshores, Epping Forest, and certain commons. They proposed to transfer the management of the foreshores to the President of the Board of Trade, and that of Epping Forest to the First Commissioner of Works. The right hon. Gentleman the First Commissioner had brought in a Bill removing all grievances with regard to the commons.
§ MR. DARBY GRIFFITHsaid, he was perfectly willing to give the Government credit for doing their best in the matter.
§ MR. KINNAIRDsaid, the hon. Gentle-man opposite had acted rightly in drawing attention to these grievances. Government deserved great credit for the way in which they had acted in this matter, as the grievances relating to the foreshores were very oppressive.
§ Resolution agreed to.
§
Resolution 4—
That it is expedient to make provision for the enjoyment by Her Majesty, during Her life or pleasure, of Claremont House, together with certain lands settled by the Act of the fifty-sixty year of King George the Third, Chapter one hundred at fifteen.
§ MR. AYRTONsaid, he wished to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what amount it might be assumed that Claremont would let for as it stood?
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, he understood from the Commissioners of Crown Lands that, under very favourable circumstances, it would let for about £1,200 per annum.
§ MR. AYRTONsaid, then it might be taken that they were about to add that sum to the Civil List granted to Her Majesty on her accession. It could scarcely be supposed that Her Majesty was dissatisfied with that settlement, and he was afraid that Her Majesty's name was used in this transaction in a way not calculated to give satisfaction to the country. They all knew that these Royal palaces were not used by the Queen herself, but were granted to people about the Court, and he was afraid that by the proposed grant great expense to the country would be incurred without any corresponding dignity being added to the Crown. He saw no necessity for making this addition to the Civil List.
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, that Claremont was not a house that could be granted away in the manner suggested by the hon. Member. It was desirable in certain instances that Her Majesty should have the power of granting residences to those whom she was anxious to reward, but Claremont would not be used for that purpose. The hon. Member spoke of it as a gift by Parliament to Her Majesty, but it was given in consideration of the pecuniary benefit which the public would receive from the proposed measure, and should not be viewed as unsettling the Civil List. He had already stated the sum the country would gain by letting the house, and that sum it was now proposed to give up in consideration of certain benefits which the public would receive by the measure they were about to pass. It was in consideration of the benefit which the public would receive from this measure that the Government felt themselves justified in recommending the proposed disposal of Claremont. In his opinion, the Bill was one which would be of considerable advantage to the public, although it would likewise grant to Her Majesty the enjoyment of Claremont during her life.
MR. HENLEYsaid, the Chancellor of the Exchequer in introducing the Resolutions used the expression that the consent of his Royal Highness the Prince of Wales had been given to the measure.
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, that the words he had used were that the measure had met with the approval of the Prince of Wales.
MR. HENLEYsaid, that the approval of his Royal Highness to the measure being required would load the public to suppose that the rights of the Prince were being dealt with.
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, that the approval of his Royal Highness was not required to this Resolution.
MR. HENLEYsaid, the approval of the Prince was unnecessary unless they were about to deal with his reversionary interest. He could not see why His Royal Highness' name had been introduced into the matter at all.
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, that the introduction of the Prince's name had no reference to this portion of the Resolutions.
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, he had not mentioned the name of the Prince in relation to Claremont, but in relation to the other portions of the measure which affected his interests. As a strict matter of fact the approval of the Prince was not requisite, but as the proposed change in reference to some of the estates about to be dealt with affected his interests, and as His Royal Highness was of age and in a position to take cognizance of the matter, it was thought right that he should be made aware of what was taking place, and that his approval should be obtained. Claremont, however, in no way bore upon his interests, and therefore his approval had not been sought for this Resolution.
MR. HENLEYsaid, he had misunderstood the matter. It was but right that the Prince should know what was going on with reference to matters by which his interests would be affected.
§ MR. THOMSON HANKEYsaid, that even if the palace were not granted to Her Majesty, the annual cost to the country for keeping up the place would far exceed the sum of £1,200 per annum, at which it was valued.
§ MR. AYRTONsaid, the hon. Gentleman was in error, as the estate would be placed in the hands of the First Commissioner of Woods and Forests, whose duty it would be to let it to the highest bidder. What they were about to do was to add £1,200 per annum to the Civil List granted to Her Majesty. Her Majesty had a palace in London, another at Windsor, a third at Osborne, and a fourth in Scotland, and of course if she required another at Claremont for her personal use not the slightest objection would be offered to her having it. It was only necessary to state that Her Majesty 965 had not sufficient palaces to live in, and that she required another, and the House would have immediately granted to her the use of this place. But that was not the suggestion. Her Majesty was not going to live in it, and the real intention was that Her Majesty should grant it to some one as a favour. They were making this addition to the Civil List in order that Her Majesty might make a present of the palace to some one else. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer would state that Her Majesty intended to reside in the House he should make no further objection to the Resolution; but if the right hon. Gentleman could not satisfy him upon that point, he should believe that they were merely adding so much to the Civil List to be applied to the purpose he had mentioned.
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, he was bound to say that he had not found it any part of his duty to inquire of Her Majesty whether she required Claremont for her personal use and enjoyment, or not. He knew that Claremont was an object of the deepest interest to Her Majesty, and without doubt it would be appropriated to her use, or to that of some member of the Royal Family. This concession made to Her Majesty was part of a measure which would result in great pecuniary benefit to the Exchequer of the country. On examination, his hon. Friend would find that the statements which he had made were fully borne out.
§ MR. AYRTONsaid, he would, of course, wait for the Bill. His remarks were entirely founded upon the Resolution before the House.
§ Resolution agreed to.
§
Resolution 5—
That it is expedient to amend the Acts relating to the Woods, Forests, and Land Revenues of the Crown.
§ Resolution agreed to.
§ House resumed.
§ Resolutions to be reported To-morrow,