COMMITTEE.

HC Deb 29 May 1865 vol 179 cc978-96

Order for Committee read.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."

MR. W. ORMSBY GORE

said, that in 1846 the late Sir Robert Peel, with that spirit of liberality and generosity which characterized his conduct with reference to Ireland, and which had in a great measure been inherited by the right hon. Baronet who bore his name, had introduced a Bill on this subject, which was followed by another in 1848, and another in 1857. The Devon Commission of 1844 recommended that the Irish constabulary should be treated as a national force, and thrown upon the Consolidated Fund. If the reasons advanced by the Commission were good in that year for such a course, they were doubly so at the present time. He also complained of the unfair manner in which the force was distributed in the different counties, and especially in Lei-trim, where the proportion was inadequate to the wants of the county. Various modifications had been made, the operation of which had not been beneficial. Since the Irish constabulary had been raised the Government had been able to reduce the number of troops in Ireland from 21,251 in 1844 to very little more than half that force. He maintained that this ought to be treated as a national question. The police, besides enabling the Government to reduce the military force, were also discharging the duties of the revenue police, a force altogether disbanded, thus saving the nation a large annual payment. Believing, as he did, that the Government ought to pay for the maintenance of a force which discharged so many important State duties, he had no hesitation in moving that the Bill should be referred to a Select Committee.

MR. BRADY

seconded the Motion, and said that great injustice had been done under the Bill of 1857. He directed attention to the present unsatisfactory distribution of the police force throughout many of the counties in Ireland, particularly in that which he had the honour to represent (Leitrim), where, though a heavy police rate was paid, the number of the police was below what it was in other counties of less area, and containing a less numerous population. He considered that the whole police force of Ireland ought to be re-distributed. When the Irish constabulary were first introduced they corresponded to the police force in England. If they had continued to perform the same offices he should not complain, but the fact was that they constituted a second army in Ireland, and a standing army ought to be paid out of the Consolidated Fund. He should give the Bill his strenuous opposition.

Amendment proposed, To leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "the Bill be committed to a Select Committee,"—(Mr. William Ormsby Gore,) —instead thereof.

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."

MR. DAWSON

said, he wished to ask his right hon. Friend (Sir Robert Peel) what the object of this Bill was—whether it was intended to supply an extra police force to the town of Belfast, or whether he intended to effect a re-distribution of the whole constabulary force throughout the whole of Ireland? If the latter he believed it would lead to a great deal of dissatisfaction. He also desired to know whether it was intended to empower the Lord Lieutenant every five years to effect a re-distribution of the police force over the country. If so, he thought that such an arrangement would be most unfortunate. It would be seen by the schedule that the police force of the county of Londonderry consisted only of 120 men, being the smallest number in proportion to the population of any county in Ireland. It had a population of 184,209 and an acreage of 522,800, whilst the county of Kilkenny, with a population of 99,940 had a force of 220 men. There were seven other counties, each of which had a population of 100,000, but in which the number of police was more than in the county of Londonderry. The resident magistrate had complained of the insufficiency of the police force in the city of Derry. His chief object in rising was to draw attention to the remarkable fact in respect to the county of Londonderry that no execution had taken place in it for more than 100 years—the last having taken place in the year 1745, and he had the authority of the late Chief Justice Doherty that within that time there had been executions in every other county in England, Scotland, Wales, and Ireland. He had no intention of voting with his hon. Friend who had moved the Amendment, but in justice to the county with which he was connected, he thought it necessary to make these few remarks.

LORD JOHN BROWNE

said, he hoped that the House would not refer the Bill to a Select Committee, either of fifteen Members or of five, as proposed by the hon. and learned Member for Belfast (Sir Hugh Cairns). The only question which such a Committee would have to decide would be the number of police which was to be allotted to each county, and that was a matter which could be much better determined by the executive Government, who, having regard to the extent of each county, its population, the facilities afforded for illicit distillation, and any exceptional circumstances which might affect it, would decide how many men were required to maintain law and order within its boundaries. Every county seemed to be anxious to have as many as possible. ["No, no!"] Well, then, if they desired to reduce the number, he had no doubt that his right hon. Friend would be delighted to meet their wishes. If a satisfactory distribution of the police force was to be carried out, the Government must disregard both the; original schedule and that which had been originally placed in this Bill. The original schedule was fixed in 1848, a period of considerable political excitement; and it was necessary at that time to concentrate large bodies of police in certain counties, in which the tendency to sedition was greatest. One of the most important duties which the police had to discharge was the suppression of illicit distillation, and it was a remarkable fact that in the counties of Mayo and Donegal, which had the smallest number of police in proportion to their size, there were almost as many offences against the Excise Laws as in all the other counties in Ireland.

SIR ROBERT PEEL

said, he trusted that the House would allow him to proceed with the Bill without further discussion, which in his opinion could not produce any good result. With respect to the observations of the hon. Member for Leitrim, there was no doubt that the force in Leitrim was diminished from the Parliamentary quota allowed by the Bill of the right hon. Member for Kerry. Leitrim, with a population of 144,740 inhabitants, had a Parliamentary quota of 271. Sligo, with 124,845 inhabitants, had a Parliamentary quota of 201. Monaghan, with 126,482 inhabitants, had a Parliamentary quota of 175. Fermanagh, with a population of 105,768 inhabitants, had a Parliamentary quota of 181. In the three latter cases there was a smaller Parliamentary quota than in Leitrim. He therefore thought that his hon. Friend had made out no case. In the Amendment which he had put on the paper he had revised the schedule to the original Bill and left it blank, leaving it to the Lord Lieutenant to alter the schedule and Parliamentry quota as he might think fit, and as circumstances might occur. The Lord Lieutenant would still have the power when the five years elapsed of increasing the Parliamentary quota in the county of Leitrim or any other county if he should think it desirable to do so. And supposing it was deemed necessary that a larger quota should be given to the county of Leitrim, the Government would offer no opposition. With regard to the county of Londonderry it was rather a compliment to it that peace and order were so well preserved, and that it required so small a number of police to maintain tranquillity therein. He did not think the county of Leitrim had any case to justify its demand for the postponement of this Bill. It was of the utmost importance that it should pass without further delay. His hon. Friend the Member for Londonderry (Mr. Dawson) asked him what the object of the Bill was. Now every one knew that the object of the Bill was to apply a remedy to a state of things that had existed for many years in Belfast to the disgrace of that town, and to the discredit of the whole of Ireland. It would be shown by the blue-books on the subject that in Belfast only four men in the whole police force, amounting to upwards of 100 men, were Roman Catholics. In the municipal council of that town there was only one Roman Catholic. He therefore thought that those who were interested in the preservation of law and order should support him in his endeavour to put an end to such a state of things and to a renewal of those riots which occurred last year resulting in thirteen or fourteen deaths, and upwards of 100 maimed. A Commission of Inquiry was sent down there, and the present Bill had been founded on their Report. The Government treated Belfast with much consideration, but he was determined, as long as he held office, to press on this Bill, because he was con- vinced that if they allowed July to come round again without some such measure being enacted, they would have a repetition of those scandalous and disgraceful disturbances which had held Belfast in a state of riot for a period of eighteen days. Several gentlemen of authority of the city of Belfast actually waited upon the Government and requested them not only to abolish the local police force but to proclaim a state of siege in the town of Belfast. He was convinced that this Bill would attain, in a moderate and constitutional manner, all that was desirable. He therefore trusted that his hon. and learned Friend opposite (Sir Hugh Cairns), who he saw was about to do so, would forego addressing the House in this stage, because he (Sir Robert Peel) would have no opportunity of answering him.

SIR HUGH CAIRNS

said, the right hon. Baronet had observed that he hoped that he (Sir Hugh Cairns) would not address the House at the present stage of the Bill in order that it might at once go into Committee. He (Sir Hugh Cairns) came down to the House in conformity with the notice standing in his name to move to refer the Bill to a Select Committee, but not with any intention to trouble the House with that Motion, because since the Bill had been laid upon the table, the right hon. Gentleman had given notice of Amendments which had considerably modified his objections to the Bill. He could assure his right hon. Friend that he had no intention to offer any objections to his Motion. He had merely risen to express his surprise that on a Motion for going into Committee upon the Bill his right hon. Friend should have gone into questions of an exciting and irritating kind.

SIR ROBERT PEEL

I beg pardon. I was asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Londonderry (Mr. Dawson) what the object of the Bill was.

SIR HUGH CAIRNS

The right hon. Gentleman, without the slightest provocation or cause, had gone into questions of a most debateable kind, and, having done so, he said he trusted that no one would answer his statements. He thought that the right hon. Gentleman had not read the Report, because he stated that the authorities of Belfast had petitioned the Government to abolish the local police force, and to proclaim the city of Belfast in a state of siege and martial law. Now he (Sir Hugh Cairns) gave his most unqualified denial to that statement. There was not a word in the Report to justify such an assertion.

SIR ROBERT PEEL

I beg the hon. and learned Gentleman's pardon. He knows as well as I do that the Government had received a deputation from Belfast during the existence of the riots, asking the Government to proclaim martial law in the town of Belfast.

SIR HUGH CAIRNS

A deputation! Who were the authorities of the town of Belfast who had joined in that deputation? He challenged the right hon. Gentleman to mention one. What was the meaning of the right hon. Gentleman rising in his place and telling the House that the authorities of Belfast requested the Government to abolish the local force and to proclaim martial law? No doubt some twenty or thirty persons sent a petition to the Government. He did not impugn their respectability. They waited upon the Government asking, what he ventured to think was an exceedingly foolish request—namely, that martial law should be proclaimed, and that the local force should be abolished. There was not one magistrate or member of the corporation among them. The right hon. Gentleman also said that if July came without such a Bill as that being passed, there would be a renewal of the riots. Now the riots did not take place in Belfast upon the July anniversary, nor in connection with that anniversary, as the right hon. Gentleman would lead the House to suppose. He therefore trusted that no such statements would again be made. He was willing that the Bill should go into Committee, believing that many of the Amendments of the right hon. Gentleman were excellent. He should not certainly take upon himself the responsibility of delaying this measure, as he was willing to give the Government credit for wishing to maintain peace and good order in Belfast as in every other part of the United Kingdom. So far from throwing an obstacle in the way of this Bill, he would give the right hon. Gentleman his cordial assistance in rendering it as effective as possible.

MR. W. ORMSBY GORE

said, he would withdraw his Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Main Question put, and agreed to.

Bill considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

On Motion that the Preamble be postponed,

SIR ROBERT PEEL

said, as the Bill originally stood there was a schedule attached to it which allotted to Belfast 130 men as the Parliamentary quota. Upon consideration he thought it better to omit that schedule and to insert a new clause in substitution of Clause 3, in which it was provided that the Lord Lieutenant should have the power of altering the distribution of the Parliamentary quota as enacted by the Bill of 1857. In addition to that the Government proposed to increase the total number of the force to 450—that was to say, 320 men in addition to the 130, which would be paid for as in other counties as an extra force—half from the county and half from the Consolidated Fund. The hon. and learned Gentleman (Sir Hugh Cairns) had an Amendment on the paper, proposing to reduce the number of the force to 400; but considering that it would have to do the night watching, he thought the number named in the Bill was more expedient. However, if the Committee were of a different opinion, he should have no objection to the change. There would be three sub-Inspectors and one Inspector, who would have supreme authority over the force. In fact, he would have very much the same powers as a county inspector. Belfast was situated part in the county of Down and part in the county of Antrim, and it was proposed for the purposes of this Bill only, that Belfast should be a county of itself, and support its own force, like Limerick, Gal-way, Londonderry, and several other large towns in Ireland. He should move the omission of Clause 10, because he did not think it would be just for the Government to give superannuation to the police of Belfast when the local force were not entitled to superannuation out of the borough fund. The Belfast police force would be paid out of the borough fund, and the municipal authorities would be bound to provide sufficient means for carrying on the additional force required to strengthen the Parliamentary quota of the borough.

LORD NAAS

said, he wished to ask, as it was proposed to omit Clause 3 from the Bill, what would be its effect upon the clause in the Act of 1857 which provided that every five years there should be a general re-distribution of the constabulary over the country—whether it would have the effect of leaving it in the power of the executive Government to vary from time to time the numbers of the constabulary in different counties in Ireland, or whether the variation now proposed was only for the present, and then the force to be still subject to the five years' re-distribution by the Act of 1857. He entertained a strong opinion that the mode of re-distribution laid down by the Act of 1857 was a good one, and should be adhered to, and as it was fully discussed in 1857, he hoped it was not intended to re-open the Question in considering this Bill.

SIR HERVEY BRUCE

said, he should not have taken part in the discussion, but I for the observation of the right hon. Baronet (Sir Robert Peel) in which he had I entirely, he would not say intentionally, misrepresented what he (Sir Hervey Bruce) stated on a former occasion. He corrected the right hon. Baronet on a former occasion, and he thought the right hon. Baronet, might have accepted his denial, and not have repeated it. He denied that he ever stated that Coleraine was such a disorderly and demoralized place that it required an additional police force. It was discourteous on the part of the right hon. Baronet to make the statement. There was no justification whatever for his assertion.

MR. LANIGAN

said, that as the extra police force was paid out of the local rates, it was desirable to get rid of them as soon as possible. They could now spare 300 from Tipperary, and he thought the best thing would be to transfer them to Belfast.

In answer to Lord NAAS,

SIR ROBERT PEEL

said, it was proposed to re-distribute the men in the constabulary as laid down in the schedule of the Act of 1857 for the purpose of this Act only; and when the five years expired, it would then be for the Lord Lieutenant to arrange the distribution according to the enactments in force. The proposed distribution was for the purpose of giving to Belfast its proper quota. With regard to the observations of the hon. Baronet the Member for Coleraine (Sir Hervey Bruce), he begged to assure him that he did not in any way mean to offend him by what he (Sir Robert Peel) had said. With regard to what had been said by the hon. Member for Cashel (Mr. Lanigan), it was no doubt true that Tipperary had too many police, for there was probably not another part of Ireland where there were so many police in proportion to the population as in Tipperary. Tipperary, he was happy to say, was now as tranquil as any part of Ireland. The police force was sent there on a requisition from the magistrates, and if the hon. Member would induce the magistrates to memorialize the Government, the latter would be too happy to accept the recommendation and withdraw them. It was no doubt a great hardship for the inhabitants to have to pay £5,000 a year for extra policemen, but they imposed it on themselves. Without a memorial, the Government was powerless to remove the extra force.

MR. BAGWELL

said, that under the 11 & 12 Vict., the Government had power to withdraw the extra force when they thought fit. There was a difficulty in bringing the magistrates to memorialize, for some of them thought it a good thing to have a police barrack near them and one gentleman would not vote against another. If the Government were satisfied of the peaceful state of Tipperary, it was their duty to withdraw the force, or, if they thought they had not the power, they ought to accept the clause which was proposed by the hon. Member (Mr. Lanigan) with a view to give them the power. The police in Tipperary had very little to do, so little that they could not do that little. They had no escort or parade duties, nothing except to amuse themselves, which they did by sitting still and smoking their pipes.

Motion agreed to.

Clause 1 (Present Police Force shall cease to exist.)

SIR HUGH CAIRNS moved the following addition to the clause:— And that the constabulary force of the town of Belfast shall have and discharge all the powers and duties which now lawfully have to be discharged by the police force of the town.

SIR ROBERT PEEL

said, he thought the Amendment unnecessary. The constabulary would discharge all the duties in Belfast which they performed in Cork and all other towns under the Constabulary Act. The Amendment might have an operation which did not appear at first sight, and might embarrass the action of the constabulary.

SIR HUGH CAIRNS

said, it was necessary that the addition should be made to the clause. Sir Henry Brownrigg, the Inspector General of the Constabulary, had stated in 1861, on an application by the corporation, that in the opinion of the Law Officers of the Crown the constabulary could not enforce the bye laws of the corporation, and could only discharge the duties imposed under the Constabulary Acts. Now, in Belfast there were a number of local Acts, and without such an Amendment as that he now proposed the constabulary would not be able to enforce the bye-laws of the corporation, some of which imposed penalties. The local force was to be abolished, and it was necessary to insert this provision.

SIR ROBERT PEEL

said, he had no objection to the Amendment—though he thought it superfluous—if it was the wish of the Committee that it should be added to the clause.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause added to the Bill.

Clause 2 agreed to.

Clause 3 (Distribution of Constabulary.)

SIR ROBERT PEEL moved to leave out Clause 3, and insert the following clause:—

(Alteration in the distribution of the Constabulary Force in Ireland.)

"Whereas it is expedient to alter the distribution of the Constabulary Force in Ireland, and to allot to the town of Belfast a proportion thereof, Be it therefore Enacted, 'That it shall be lawful for the Lord Lieutenant, with the advice of Her Majesty's Privy Council in Ireland, anything in an Act of the twentieth and twenty-first years of Her Majesty, chapter seventeen, to the contrary notwithstanding, to alter or vary the number of constables and sub-constables for each county, city, or town, specified in the Schedule to that Act, and to include the town of Belfast in the said Schedule: Provided always, That the total number of constables and sub-constables to be distributed shall not exceed the number fixed by the said recited Act, and that the number allotted to the town of Belfast shall not be less than one hundred and thirty constables and sub-constables."

COLONEL FRENCH

said, he hoped that the right hon. Baronet would explain the rules which would guide the distribution of the constabulary force under the new clause. There were certain districts which were satisfied with very few policemen when they had to pay for them, but which, now that the expense was borne by the Consolidated Fund, wanted every man that could be had.

MR. W. ORMSBY GORE

said, the clause it was intended to substitute would give great powers to the Lord Lieutenant and the Chief Secretary for Ireland, and so long as they discharged their duties fairly and impartially, there would be nothing to fear; but it was said a great deal of backstairs influence prevailed in Dublin Castle. If they could have any guarantee that the clause would be fairly worked, it would be desirable for the Committee to agree to it.

LORD NAAS

said, if the clause was left out the representatives of Ireland would not know what the distribution of the police was to be. He should like to know the exact reason for striking out the clause.

SIR ROBERT PEEL

said, that after consultation with the corporation of Belfast it was thought desirable to state the number of men to be employed. The Government did not intend to take away any constabulary from any county which was paying for extra men. There was no desire whatever to do anything underhand.

Clause 3 negatived, and the above Clause agreed to.

Clause 4 (Increase and Reduction of Numbers of Constabulary by Lord Lieutenant.)

SIR ROBERT PEEL

proposed the following Amendment.

Amendment proposed, In page 2, line 26, to leave out from the word "Force" to the end of the Clause, in order to add the words "which shall be allotted to the town of Belfast under the provisions of this Act, any number of men, not exceeding three hundred and twenty, which the Lord Lieutenant may think fit to provide for the more effectual preservation of the peace of the said town, and such additional number of men, together with the one hundred and thirty hereinbefore mentioned, shall constitute the ordinary Constabulary Force of the said town."—(Sir Robert Peel.)

Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question," put, and negatived.

Question proposed, "That those words be there added."

SIR HUGH CAIRNS

said, the ordinary police force of Belfast consisted of 160 local men and 65 members of the constabulary—225 in all. The proposition of the right hon. Baronet would raise the force to a number not exceeding 450—namely, 120 absolutely appointed to the town, and a number not exceeding 320 which the Lord Lieutenant would be authorized to send. The Amendment did not make it compulsory on the Lord Lieutenant to send 320, but it was competent for him to do so. Now, as the appointment of this force would affect the financial arrangements of the corporation, it was necessary to know the precise number of men of whom the force was to consist, because the corporation had to pay half the expense of the extra men. It was true the Commissioners suggested that there should be power to send 120 men, but they had scarcely weighed sufficiently the evidence laid before them. Nothing could be clearer than that according to the evidence the maximum force should be 400, which was an enormous increase as compared with the present number of 225 men. Inspector Hervey, of the constabu- lary, had given his decided opinion that 400 men would be amply sufficient to discharge all the duties both night and day, provided certain regulations were slightly modified. He (Sir Hugh Cairns) had gone carefully through the whole of the very voluminous evidence which was taken by the Commissioners, and there was not a single witness, with the exception of Mr. O'Donnell, a stipendiary magistrate, who put the number above 400. He was willing to take the 400 which Inspector Hervey, upon whose evidence the whole scheme was recommended, and that was a much larger force in proportion to the population than there was at Birmingham, Leeds, Manchester, Glasgow, or Edinburgh. In some of these towns there was but one policeman to 831 inhabitants, in others but one to 790, while in Belfast there would be one to every 350. The hon. and learned Gentleman then moved that the words "Three hundred and twenty" be struck out of the clause, and the words "Two hundred and seventy" be inserted in their stead.

Amendment proposed to the said proposed Amendment, in line 3, to leave out the words "three hundred and twenty," in order to insert the words "two hundred and seventy."—(Sir Hugh Cairns.)

SIR ROBERT PEEL

said, that his proposal would cause a great saving in the local police expenditure of Belfast. At page 10 of the evidence the hon. and learned Gentleman would find recommendations that the police force should be from 400 to 500 for Belfast. He hoped the Committee would adopt his proposal of making the maximum number 450, and that the hon. and learned Gentleman would not persist with his Amendment. If, however, the Committee were of opinion that the number should be 400, and not 450, as he had no very strong feeling on the point, he would give way.

MR. BRADY

said, he thought that the people of Belfast ought to be satisfied with the proposal of the right hon. Baronet (Sir Robert Peel), as it would reduce the cost of their police.

SIR HUGH CAIRNS

said, he doubted whether there would be any saving if the proposal of the right hon. Baronet were adopted, for the superannuations to which it would lead must be taken into account. For several years to come Belfast would have to pay a greater police rate than it had hitherto paid, as compared with Cork. He contended that Belfast ought to have a larger police force than even that which was now proposed.

MR. ESMONDE

said, he thought that in the interest of the men themselves the number should be ample, as the night duty especially was very trying.

LORD NAAS

said, that all the witnesses examined were of opinion that 400 would do the work perfectly, including night duty. If 400 were ample, they ought to fix that number now definitely that the people might know the strength of their police force.

SIR PATRICK O'BRIEN

said, he hoped the right hon. Baronet (Sir Robert Peel) would persevere in his intention to give effect to the spirit and scope of the recommendations of the Commissioners, so that any future attempt at disturbance might be at once quelled.

SIR HUGH CAIRNS

said, it was idle to talk of the number of police necessary to quell a riot when it once got to a head. Four hundred and fifty would be just as ineffective for that object as 400. The question was—what is to be the ordinary police force? He trusted that the right hon. Baronet would adhere to the evidence of his own officer of constabulary, who said that 400 were amply sufficient.

MR. HENLEY

said, he wished to inquire the proportion the 450 men proposed bore to the total population of the town.

SIR HUGH CAIRNS

said, that the proportion would be one policeman to every 350 of the population.

MR. HENLEY

said, he thought the proportion extraordinarily large. In London the proportion was one constable to every 500 of the population.

Question put, "That the words 'three hundred and twenty' stand part of the said proposed Amendment."

The Committee divided:—Ayes 82; Noes 61: Majority 21.

Clause added to the Bill.

Clauses 5 and 6 agreed to.

Clause 7 (Provision as to Officers of the Constabulary Force in Belfast, and their Salaries.)

In reply to Lord NAAS,

SIR ROBERT PEEL

said, it was intended to send a person to Belfast who would hold the office of Inspector of; Constabulary, but that he would not necessarily be one of the county Inspectors. He would be paid entirely out of the local rates of Belfast.

SIR HUGH CAIRNS

said, he had been authorized by the corporation of Belfast to propose, as an Amendment, that the salary of the Inspector should be £500 instead of £400 a year.

SIR ROBERT PEEL

said, he thought the lesser sum quite sufficient, the more especially considering that the salaries of the stipendiary magistrates had been reduced. He could not understand the object of the hon. and learned Gentleman's liberality.

SIR HUGH CAIRNS

said, he had moved the Amendment with the view of securing the services of a competent person; but if the Government thought they could obtain the services of such a man as was recommended by the Commissioners in their Report, for £400 a year—at which he would be very much surprised—he should most gladly withdraw his Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 8 (Extra Remuneration for Night Duty.)

LORD NAAS

said, there was a question whether the constabulary were bound to perform night duty in towns or not, and the proposal in the clause, which seemed to recognize that the constabulary were not so bound, seemed to him very objectionable. In some towns of Ireland a large amount of property was nightly exposed to depredation, the constabulary making no effort to protect it, and the consequence was that private watchmen had to be appointed at considerable expense. This was undesirable, and he suggested that this 6d. per night should be added to the general pay of the force, so as to avoid establishing a distinction between night duties and the general duties of the constabulary.

SIR HUGH CAIRNS moved, as an Amendment, the addition of words limiting the payment of 6d. to men who performed the duty of watching during the whole of the night watch.

SIR ROBERT PEEL

said, it was proposed to tell off a certain number of men every day for night watching, and these men would receive 6d. a night. It was not intended that they should receive the money without performing the whole duty.

SIR HUGH CAIRNS

said, that whatever might be the intention of the right hon. Baronet, the words of the clause would authorize this payment to the constabulary if they were on duty for any portion of the night. He did not see why the right hon. Baronet should adhere to the words of this clause if he could give no reason against the adoption of the Amendment. He hoped the Committee would see the necessity of the Amendment.

SIR GEORGE GREY

said, he was willing to postpone the clause.

SIR HUGH CAIRNS

said, he was anxious that the 6d. should be paid for the whole bonâ fide night watch. Perhaps the maximum number of men to receive it might be fixed.

SIR GEORGE GREY

said, he thought it might be better to consider whether any additional words were required in the clause.

LORD NAAS

said, that as the clause now stood the whole of the constabulary might be paid this 6d. per night.

MR. BAGWELL

said, that Clonmel was practically unprotected during the night.

SIR HUGH CAIRNS

said, that he hoped there would be no mistake, and that it was to be understood that the Government took upon itself the responsibility that the whole duties of the night watch should be efficiently discharged by the constabulary. With this understanding he was willing to accept the proposal of the Home Secretary that the point should be reserved for consideration.

LORD NAAS

said, that perhaps it would be better to postpone the clause and bring up a new one on the Report.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 9 (Superannuation, &c, of Constabulary.)

SIR COLMAN O'LOGHLEN

said, he wished to ask if it were intended to superannuate all the police in Belfast. Were any of them to be drafted into the general police force. It was objectionable to give compensation to such of them as were young men and fit for duty, and to charge such compensation on the local funds of Belfast.

SIR HUGH CAIRNS

agreed that it was very hard the town should be burdened with providing compensation for a body of men many of whom were in the prime of life, and were willing to enter the constabulary force. It appeared that all these men, with the exception of fifteen, were under forty years of ago. It also appeared that the objection to receive them into the constabulary was that a number of them were married, and that the constabulary only admitted a certain proportion of married men. He thought that if these men were willing to go and live in barracks, the fact of their being married men ought not, under the circumstances, to prevent their admission into the constabulary. It might be said that the clause only permitted the Town Council of Belfast to grant superannuations, and did not compel them to do so. It was not likely, however, that the Town Council would turn off these men without some superannuation or allowance. The Commissioners advised that these men should be taken into the constabulary. He moved to add to the clause the following words:— Provided always, that, notwithstanding any regulation in respect of the appointment of constables to the constabulary force in Ireland, the Inspector General of the constabulary force in Ireland shall appoint to be constable in the lastmentioned force any constable of the said local police force whose age does not exceed forty years, and to whose conduct and character no fair objection can be made.

LORD JOHN BROWNE

said, he would support such an addition. It was stated that there was a difficulty in filling up the constabulary force to the proper number, and if so that was an additional reason for filling up the deficiency by appointing these men.

SIR ROBERT PEEL

said, that many of those men were married, and the difficulty was that if they were sent to barracks in different parts of the country there would be no accommodation for their wives and families. Of course those who were eligible would enter the constabulary force if they pleased. Until within the last year or so there had been no superannuations of the police out of the borough rates of Belfast.

SIR GEORGE GREY

said, he was of opinion that if the hon. and learned Gentleman read the Amendment again he would hardly think it right to press it. Many of the members of the local force might be unfit for the general constabulary in consequence of their want of sufficient height or sufficient strength. At all events, it was obvious that the matter could not be disposed of now, and without notice.

MAJOR O'REILLY

said, the Committee would probably agree in the opinion that it was advisable in such cases to pursue the ordinary course and give due notice of Amendments. He agreed in the spirit of the Amendment, which was, that all eligible men of the Belfast local police force should be taken into the general constabulary of Ireland, so that they might not be left with a claim for compensation for the remainder of their lives. He would suggest the insertion of the word "may "instead of "shall "in the Amendment, as some difficulty might be found in dealing with the cases of married men.

SIR HUGH CAIRNS

said, he was willing to adopt the word "may "instead of "shall."

MR. ESMONDE

said, he was of opinion that the clause would not work. A "constable "was equivalent to a sergeant in the line, and it was proposed by this clause to enlist the privates in the local force as "constables"into the constabulary.

SIR ROBERT PEEL

said, by the Amendment as it now stood the Inspector General would be authorized or obliged to place the men who were to be reenlisted in "the last-mentioned force;" but that was the Belfast force.

LORD NAAS

said, it referred to the constabulary force in Ireland.

SIR GEORGE GREY

said, he was exactly under the same impression as his right hon. Friend (Sir Robert Peel), and that showed the necessity of giving notice of Amendments.

Amendment negatived.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 10 struck out.

Remaining clauses agreed to.

MR. LANIGAN

said, that in consequence of 300 additional constabulary being sent to the county of Tipperary several years back, the ratepayers had paid for their maintenance since then £90,000 and upward. It appeared that the Government had no power to withdraw that additional force unless memorialized so to do by the magistrates, and he therefore proposed the following new clause to give the power to the Government:— Whereas by the Act of 11 & 12 Vict. c. 72, s. 5, it is enacted that in all cases where an additional constabulary force shall have been certified by the magistrates of any county at large at any general or special sessions as now by law provided to be necessary for the due execution of the law within such county, and shall be appointed in conformity with such certificate, from and after the passing of this Act, it shall be lawful for the lord-lieutenant or other chief governor or governors to remove such additional police force whenever the said lord-lieutenant or chief governor or governors shall consider such additional force no longer necessary for the due preservation of the peace in such county.

MR. BRADY

seconded the Motion.

COLONEL FRENCH

said, he thought that the proper persons to express an opinion on the subject were the magistrates, and the Lord Lieutenant in Dublin might not be so well able to judge of the expediency of retaining or withdrawing the additional police. The clause appeared to be a mere recital.

SIR ROBERT PEEL

said, he thought the enactment of such a clause would be most objectionable. He admitted, however, the grievance to a particular county, as that of Tipperary, of being burdened with a large force when the circumstances which had required its presence had passed away. The Government, however, would consider the matter with a view to providing a remedy for the evil complained of. He thought that where an additional force had been sent to a county on the requisition of the magistrates they should not be removed without their consent.

MR. BAGWELL

said, he thought it extraordinary that when the grievance was acknowledged the right hon. Gentleman should oppose the simple means proposed of remedying it. The clause only gave the Lord Lieutenant power to remove men from any county where they were no longer wanted.

MR. BRADY

said, he coincided with the hon. Members for Cashel and Clonmel (Mr. Lanigan and Mr. Bagwell) in the necessity of this clause, as he knew from experience the existence of the grievance it was proposed to remedy. The case was this. A certain number of agents who were, perhaps, magistrates, made themselves so disagreeable as to induce a consciousness of their own personal danger. They therefore called upon their brother magistrates to join them in a requisition to the Lord Lieutenant to have an extra force of police sent down to their district. The police were accordingly sent down, not for the general protection of life and property, but to calm the apprehensions and give confidence to a few individuals who had made themselves obnoxious to some of the people. Now these police were often continued in the district long after their services were needed. It therefore appeared to him to be absolutely necessary to give the power proposed by the clause to the Lord Lieutenant or local authorities to remove this burden off the particular county.

LORD JOHN BROWNE

said, he did not think it desirable to insert such a clause in the Bill. It appeared to him that the police ought not to be withdrawn from any place without the consent of the magistrates under whose authority they had been summoned. Where the magistrates were not agreed that the extra police stations were unnecessary they ought not to be abolished; but the number of men might be reduced, as had recently been done in the county of Mayo.

MR. LANIGAN

said, he would withdraw the clause.

Schedule struck out.

On Question that the preamble be agreed to,

SIR HUGH CAIRNS

said, that he hoped the Government would consider the propriety of introducing into the constabulary force stationed in large towns and places a system for distinguishing them by numbers on their uniforms or otherwise, by which the individuals of that force could be easily identified, as in London and other places. Within the last two weeks even cases had occurred in Ireland in which complaints had been made against certain members of that force for misconduct, but in consequence of the great difference of testimony as to their identity the magistrates were in doubt how to act.

SIR ROBERT PEEL

said, that the matter should be referred to the Inspector General and considered. At the same time, it was fair to remember that the police in Cork and Galway were not distinguished by numbers, and no complaints had arisen on that score.

Preamble agreed to.

House resumed.

Bill reported; as amended, to be considered on Thursday, and to be printed. [Bill 178.]