HC Deb 29 March 1865 vol 178 cc470-9

Order for Second Reading read.

SIR FITZROY KELLY,

in moving the second reading of the Bill, said, it was a measure which had been long and urgently required for the protection of the public, and it was desired by all the members of the respectable profession of chemists and druggists. It was well known to the House that as the law now stood there was absolutely no protection whatever for the public in general against the carrying on of the business of chemist and druggist, and consequently of the making up of medical prescriptions by persons altogether ignorant and incompetent. It had long been felt that the law ought to provide some protection against the dangers to which the public was exposed in this respect. The Medical Council had recently called the attention of the Government to this important subject in the hope that the right hon. Baronet the Home Secretary would himself introduce a Bill to provide a remedy against the evils complained of. It was not for him to arraign the Government, who he had no doubt had very good reasons for not attempting legislation on the subject; but as the Government had shown no disposition to act upon the suggestion made them, the Pharmaceutical Society, which had been long established, and whose acts and proceedings had conferred great benefit upon the public, thought it their duty to submit this measure to the consideration of the House. As the law at present stood, there was no qualification required, nor was any licence necessary to enable a man to start into business as a chemist and druggist. By the present Bill it was proposed to subject chemists and druggists, with certain exceptions, to an examination, upon the result of which would depend their registration, and when registered, whether they should be hereafter entitled to carry on the business of chemist and druggist and to make up medical prescriptions; the registry would be kept by the Pharmaceutical Society. The only question that remained for consideration was, what was to be the nature of the examination and by whom it should be conducted. Now, there already existed the means and the machinery for such examinations with the most perfect security within the Pharmaceutical Society itself. That Society had been in existence since 1843, when it was incorporated; and in 1852 it was recognized and confirmed by the well-known Act called the Pharmacy Act. A body of examiners had been appointed to examine candidates for the profession in botany, chemistry, materia medica, and the Latin language, and the successful candidate obtained a certificate by which he was qualified to be an associate of the Society. The whole substance of this Bill was contained in a single sentence. It was proposed that all persons hereafter to be permitted to carry on the business of chemist and druggist, and to prepare medical prescriptions, should, in the first instance, submit to an examination by this Society, and upon obtaining a certificate of competency they should be registered by the payment of a small fee to the Pharmaceutical Society. He was quite content to leave the question of fees and any other detail to the approval of the Secretary of State, the main object of the Bill was the examination, and that, he thought, would give all the security that was required. It was impossible to speak too confidently of the nature and character of this examination. The system had been in existence and practice for more than twenty years, and had been recognized and confirmed by Act of Parliament in 1852; it had received the sanction of various Governments. He, therefore, thought he was warranted in relying upon the support of Her Majesty's Ministers in moving the second reading of the present measure. The Medical Board charged with the well-being of the army had stamped their approval on the examination and whole proceedings of the Pharmaceutical Society by a resolution which had been in force for many years; and no one could be an army dispenser without producing their certificate; and the effect of this Bill was to protect the public as the army is now protected by prohibiting any person from making up prescriptions unless he had passed an examination by the Pharmaceutical Society. At present several thousand persons carried on the business of chemists and druggists, and it had been thought too strong a measure for any but Her Majesty's Government to lay any important restrictions upon them; and therefore, whilst the provisions of the Bill were stringent and precise, an exception was made by the Bill in favour of those who had carried on this business for a certain period, and there were some thousands who might have carried it on for a great length of time; but it would be necessary for them to produce the certificate of a medical practitioner that they had actually and bonâ fide carried on the business of a chemist and druggist before this Bill came into operation, and on that certificate they would be entitled, without further qualification, to be registered and to carry on the business hereafter. If the House should read the Bill a second time it would be for the Government and the House to decide when in Committee whether a clause should be added to the Bill imposing any further restrictions upon the existing chemists and druggists. All that he now asked was that the House should assent to the second reading of this Bill, with the view of securing the public against the carrying on hereafter of this business by utterly incompetent, inexperienced, and altogether ignorant persons, and enact an examination of properly qualified persons by the Pharmaceutical Society, which had obtained universal approbation wherever it had been applied in practice. The Bill of the hon. Baronet the Member for Westminster (Sir John Shelley) had two objects in view. One identical with the object of the Bill now before the House, and the other a much more extensive object—namely, to prescribe the terms and conditions upon which the sale of poisons and drugs, and what were called "chemicals" in general should hereafter be sold. Now, that, he thought, was far too difficult and complicated a measure, as it would interfere with the freedom of many branches of trade, to be made the subject of a Bill; but should the Government undertake such a measure he should be happy to give them his assistance; but he protested against its being attempted to legislate in that manner by individual Members of that House. Both Bills, however, admitted the necessity of affording to the public some protection against incompetent and ignorant persons carrying on the trade of chemists and druggists; they agreed that some examination should be applied to all; and the only difference between them in that respect was by whom the examination should be conducted. His Bill proposed that it should be in the hands of the already recognized body—the Pharmaceutical Society—who had conducted their operations in that respect with great effect and success. The other Bill proposed that there should be a Council of twenty-one members, who were to appoint the examiners, no provision being made for the qualification either of the Council or the examiners, and they were equally left in doubt as to the character of the examination. That was a point which he thought might be as well, if not more properly, discussed and decided in that House than in a Select Committee, because it was a point upon which they did not require to take evidence.

Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2°."—(Sir FitzRoy Kelly.)

SIR JOHN SHELLEY

distinctly disclaimed, on the part of those whom he represented on this occasion, the slightest intention to infringe or interfere with the privileges of the chartered body who were the clients of the hon. and learned Gentleman. The question was a public one—the sale of drugs. Dr. Taylor had recommended to the Government that the question of the sale of poisons should be taken into consideration. The Bill of the hon. and learned Gentleman wont no further than this: it proscribed a certain examination, under the Pharmacy Act, to be undergone by all before they were qualified to make up medical prescriptions; but there was a very large portion of the trade earring on a lucrative business, that did not see or make up a medical prescription once in a week, and the Bill as to these would be comparatively useless. The trade was divided into two classes—namely, those who wished to become scientific chemists and those who carried on the trade of chemists and druggists, who required little or no qualification for the branch of the trade in which they had embarked. His Bill proposed to deal, not with common things sold over the counter, but only with poisons. The Pharmaceutical Society had no doubt existed for many years, was possessed of great privileges and wealth, and had done a great deal of good in towns, but its benefits had not reached the agricultural districts. It was well that the House should know that the members of the Pharmaceutical Society numbered at one time 4,000, but since then they had decreased to 2,300, including the foreign and colonial members. The United Society of Chemists, whose Bill he would have the honour of proposing to that House, was composed of over 3,000 members. It was clear, he considered, that the examination prescribed by the Pharmaceutical Society was too expensive, and this accounted for the falling off in the number of its members, and the superior numerical strength of the Society of Chemists and Druggists. Care should be taken that while the doctors differed the patients did not die; and it was their duty to see, in the public interests, that some legislation should take place by which the sale of poisons would be efficiently regulated. If he understood aright the Bill proposed by his hon. and learned Friend, it would prohibit any person from making up a prescription who had not undergone the examination of the Council of the Pharmaceutical Society. The House would agree that it was a great pity that the two great Societies which had been referred to had not come together and mutually agreed upon the principles of a Bill which would not have interfered with the freedom of the trade, and have given the public that protection which they required in the sale of dangerous drugs. The Chemists and Druggists Society had made advances with that object, but the Pharmaceutical Society would not recognize it, and now each Society had come forward with a Bill of its own. The examinations of the Pharmaceutical Society cost ten guineas; and in addition to that there were the expenses necessarily entailed upon persons coming from the country to London, and remaining there till they had passed their examination; so that the outlay would not amount to less than £30 or £40. He did not wish to interfere for a moment with the privileges of the Pharmaceutical Society; on the contrary, he would still be glad to see chemists wishing to raise themselves in the grade of their profession, taking the advantage of the examination which the Pharmaceutical Society afforded; but he could not assent to the principle of forcing the whole of the chemists and druggists to pay for that examination, when they could be regis- tered for half the amount. The public required more protection than the Bill proposed by the hon. and learned Member provided, and he (Sir John Shelley) ventured to say that that Bill did not meet with the support of the trade at large. The House should not look upon the two Bills as a mere squabble between two great Societies, but as an important public question. Let the Pharmaceutical Society go on with their hall and lectures, and they would no doubt do much good; but this Bill of the Society was not calculated to promote the interests of the trade at large, nor yet to reduce the danger to which the public were exposed in the sale of drugs. The Bill which he (Sir John Shelley) had brought forward did not interfere with those now carrying on the trade of chemists and druggists, but it proposed that chemists should be registered under an Act, and, after that, that a Board of Examination should be founded upon the principle of the Medical Practitioners Act. He believed if these two Bills were referred to a Select Committee, the result would be satisfactory. The sale of poisons was a difficult question to deal with, and he heartily wished the Government had taken it in hand, especially after the strong representation that had been made on all sides as to the mode in which drugs were dispensed in agricultural districts, where everything, from laudanum to a pair of boots was sold in the same shop. The question of the sale of poisons was no doubt difficult to deal with, but when they found that a Society that had been established so many years shirked it, and the Government did nothing, it was right that some one else should take steps to put the matter on a right footing. A Select Committee might find the groundwork of a good public Act in the Bill which he had brought before the House, rather than that in which had been proposed by his hon. and learned Friend opposite. He had, however, no objection to the second reading of this Bill, hoping the House would see the necessity of referring both Bills to a Select Committee.

MR. BRADY

supported the Bill of his hon. and learned Friend (Sir FitzRoy Kelly), and contrasted the importance of the two Societies referred to, and their respective claims upon the consideration of the House. The Pharmaceutical Society was composed of men of the highest knowledge in chemistry, and the examinations of the Society were formed upon a very high stand- ard; while the Society of Chemists and Druggists admitted clerks, apprentices, and many other persons as members who knew nothing whatever about chemistry. He attributed the decrease in the members of the Pharmaceutical Society to the fact that there were a number of enthusiastic persons joined it at first who had since resigned, not having any real interest in the science of chemistry. It was incumbent, he thought, upon the Home Secretary to take the matter into his own hands.

MR. KINGLAKE

said, he did not admit that there was any force in the argument of the hon. Baronet as to the greater number of members composing the Chemists and Druggists Society compared with the Pharmaceutical Society. The one submitted its members to a very difficult examination, whereas the other did not subject its members to any examination whatever. The claim of the Pharmaceutical Society rested entirely upon the fact that it had ready a machinery suitable for conducting the proposed examinations; whereas, if the Bill of the hon. Baronet were adopted, it would be necessary to begin de novo and constitute new machinery. There were some alterations which he would like to see made in the Bill, which would place all chemists and druggists now in business on an equality with those who should hereafter pass the examination of the Pharmaceutical Society. If that were done, he should not object to the second reading.

MR. ROEBUCK

wished to know what steps the Government intended to take in this matter; as he would feel himself very much bound by what they did, because this was a matter which fell particularly within their cognizance.

SIR GEORGE GREY

said, he had no objection to the second reading of the Bill of the hon. and learned Gentleman opposite (Sir FitzRoy Kelly). The Pharmaceutical Society was a very important and useful body, and if there were to be examinations of chemists and druggists those examinations might with safety be placed under the direction of the Council of that Society. There was no doubt these subjects required very careful consideration. The hon. and learned Gentleman was quite right in saying that Bills with reference to medical subjects had hitherto been very carefully inquired into. That was the case with the Pharmacy Act, which received the close attention of a Select Committee, of which his right hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. E. P. Bouverie) was Chairman, and the Bill which was brought in was essentially altered, the House having adopted the recommendations of the Committee with regard to it. There was again the Medical Registration Act, with regard to which he recollected the difficulty that was experienced in bringing together the different branches of the medical profession; and it was only after an inquiry before a Select Committee, that this object was effected, and an amended Bill was submitted to Parliament, which was ultimately adopted, with the general approval of the medical profession. He had seen the representatives of the Pharmaceutical Society, and also of the general body of Chemists and Druggists, and his advice to them was that they should meet together, and agree upon a general outline of a Bill. He could not concur in all parts of the Bill which the Pharmaceutical Society wished him to introduce, and he stated certain objections to it. Unhappily, though it was, perhaps, not a matter of surprise, there were jealousies existing among members of the same profession, and it had not yet been possible to bring them together and induce them to agree to the principles of a Bill. The Bill of the hon. and learned Gentleman was good as far as it went, but it dealt with a very limited portion of the subject. It professed only to provide an examination for chemists who were to make up prescriptions for medical practitioners. In the other Bill before the House there were provisions with regard to the sale of poisons and deleterious drugs, and it would be extremely desirable when dealing with the subject to embody in the Bill, if possible, these provisions. He thought there were points in both Bills which recommended them to favourable consideration, and if a Select Committee were appointed who would bring before them a limited number of the representatives of the two conflicting parties, a Bill might be the result which would effect to the fullest extent the object in which they had so deep an interest. He would recommend that both Bills be read a second time, and referred to a Select Committee, a course which he believed would be the most satisfactory to the House.

LORD ELCHO

said, he had some objections to the Bill proposed by the hon. and learned Member (Sir FitzRoy Kelly). He had been asked by the Pharmaceutical Society to undertake the conduct of that Bill through the House, and the reason, he apprehended, why they came to him was that in 1858 he had taken an active part in the subject of medical reform. There was much need felt for raising the standard of education. There were so many different bodies bidding against each other that the result was the lowering of medical education. Certain bodies also had monopolies which it was felt desirable to do away with. When the representatives of the Pharmaceutical Society came to him with this Bill, he told them they went a little too far in one respect, and an injustice would be inflicted. He contended that it was necessary to allow certain persons in country villages to dispense medicines, and even to make up prescriptions, although it could not be expected that those people should undergo examinations. Having met with an accident in the Highlands during the present year he had had occasion himself to get a prescription made up in one of these country villages. He had to go for this purpose to the post-office of the village, which he found to be a store for the sale of almost every article, from Addles to hobnails. His prescription, however, was made up, and did him great benefit. Now he believed it to be unadvisable to do away with shops of that description; and, at the same time, it was unreasonable to expect that such shopkeepers should submit to an examination. He should support the Bill brought in by his hon. and learned Friend in preference to the one introduced by the hon. Baronet, because, of the two, he believed it to be the more liberal. He should also observe that the former measure was promoted by the Pharmaceutical Society, who had a good library, laboratory, and lecture-room, and they had expended £70,000 on the education of the chemists and druggists of the country; while the Secretary of the Chemists and Druggists, Society, who had framed the other Bill, were nothing more than a trading body, and a sort of benefit society. Under these circumstances he could not help thinking that if the present law were to be changed it would be better to raise the new system upon the foundation furnished by the former, rather than upon that furnished by the latter of those two bodies. He should, however, recommend the hon. and learned Gentleman to accede to the proposal that his measure should be referred with the competing scheme to a Select Committee.

MR. BEECROFT

also recommended the hon. and learned Gentleman to allow his Bill to be referred to a Select Committee.

SIR FITZROY KELLY

said, he would assent, though, reluctantly, to this proposal.

Motion agreed to.

Bill read 2°, and committed, to a Select Committee. Then,