§ Bill considered in Committee.
§ (In the Committee.)
§ Clauses 1 to 3 agreed to.
§ Clause 4 (When full Rate may be granted.)
§ MR. CAVEsaid, that he had received a communication from the hon. Member for Honiton (Mr. Baillie Cochrane), stating that, owing to a death in his family, he should be unable to move certain Amendments of which he had given notice, and begging him to take charge of them. He would, therefore, with the permission of the Committee, say a few words in explanation of the Amendments taken together, and then state the course which, with the full concurrence of his hon. Friend, he proposed taking with respect to them. The first related to the age at which a Governor should be entitled to a pension; and he certainly thought that when the harrassing nature of the service and the variety of climates to which he was exposed were considered, sixty was a very advanced age for the commencement of a pension. It was besides a premium on age instead of on work, and could not be defended by reference to the superannuations under the Civil Service Act, where the employment 664 was continuous. The next Amendment was the alteration of the term of years from eighteen to fifteen. The explanation of the eighteen was that three separate governments of six years each were to be fulfilled before a claim could be preferred; but it frequently happened that, from ill-health or some accident, or possibly even from some exigency requiring the presence of an able man in another settlement—as in the case of Sir George Grey, for example, who left the Cape for New Zealand when the war broke out—a man might lose a year or two, or even a few mouths, a deficiency, be it remembered, which could not be made up but by an appointment to another full term of six years, so that to make up eighteen years a man might have to serve twenty-three. He thought, therefore, that while maintaining the principle of the three Governments a year's grace might well be conceded to each. The third and last Amendment was, he thought, the fairest of all. Its object was to provide that colonial service should count for pension as well as that in the permanent Civil Service at home. These colonial posts were really filled up by appointments from home, or when appointments were made by the Governors of the colonies they were made with the sanction and subject to the approval of the Colonial Office. That such service was considered excellent preparation for higher offices was proved by the selection of Governors being frequently made from this source; and hard work in a bad climate certainly gave a better claim upon the country than a comparatively easy and healthy life in Downing Street. These were the Amendments of which he had charge. He had often thought that a more careful distribution of the honours in the gift of the Sovereign might have the effect of drawing into the colonial service men to whom the pecuniary question was of less importance; but so long as it was the custom to confer baronetcies on Lord Mayors on account of events with which they had nothing to do, and knighthood on almost any one who would submit to it, so long must they expect to pay liberally for good men. He had, he thought, shown sufficient justification for these Amendments; at the same time he would rather have the Bill as it stood than none at all, and at so late a period of the Session he was unwilling to do anything which might impede or endanger it. It was, therefore, in no hostile spirit that he put it, and he did so most earnestly, to the Secretary of 665 State, whether he would not assent to proposals which appeared to him only moderate and just. He moved in line 3, to leave out "sixty," and insert "fifty;" in line 5, to leave out "eighteen," and insert "fifteen;" in line 9, to leave out "permanent."
§ SIR JOHN PAKINGTONsaid, he hoped that the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for the Colonies (Mr. Cardwell) would at all events assent to the first of these Amendments, which would reduce the ago at which the full rate of pension might be granted from sixty to fifty years. On the former occasion when the Bill was discussed, when he (Sir John Pakington) had expressed an opinion that very few Colonial Governors were to be found to whom the Bill would apply, the right hon. Gentleman (the Secretary of the Colonies) corrected him, and said that eighteen gentlemen would derive benefits from this Bill. But, in private conversation, the right hon. Gentleman admitted that, although there were twenty-eight gentlemen who by their services would be entitled to pensions, only three or four of them had attained the age at which those pensions would accrue. It was clear that many cases of hardship might arise under the Bill as it now stood. It would be very hard, for instance, that a man who had served in a bad climate and returned to this country in bad health at the age of fifty should have to wait for ten years in comparative poverty before he could receive a pension. Difficulties might also arise out of the provision in the fifth clause, which required a service of twelve years before a pension could be granted even at the reduced rate. He himself was acquainted with an instance of a gentleman who, having served as Colonial Secretary in two colonies, was in consequence of his meritorious conduct promoted to a Governorship in the West Indies. There, too, his service was so distinguished that long before the expiry of his government he was transferred to the Mauritius. The consequence was that his term of service amounted to only eleven years, and he was, therefore, disqualified from receiving a pension, while, if he had been less meritorious, he would have remained longer in the West Indies, and would have acquired the right.
§ MR. CARDWELLsaid, that it was a most ungracious task for one in his position to argue against extending the benefits to be given to Colonial Governors under this Bill; but he must at once lay down the 666 principle that the only ground upon which the Bill could be justified to the House of Commons was that its operation was to be prospective. Its object was not to give advantages to gentlemen who had already discharged their duty and received the stipulated reward. Of course the House would include such gentlemen in the provisions of any Act which might be passed when they met their cases; but it was his duty to defend the Bill and its arrangements upon prospective grounds. The case which the right hon. Baronet had suggested with reference to the operation of the limit of sixty yean would be met by a provision contained in this clause, that when a gentleman was incapacitated by ill-health contracted in the discharge of his duties he might be allowed to retire at once upon a full pension. The Bill had been framed in entire conformity with the general principle of the Superannuation Acts, the limit of age in which had only recently been reduced from sixty-five to sixty years. As to the proposal to substitute fifteen years service for eighteen, he must remind the hon. Gentleman that the next clause of the Bill provided that any one who had served twelve years might receive a pension amounting to two-thirds of the full rate. With respect to the omission of the word "permanent," the clause would then include not only those who had served in this country, but also those who had served in North America or any other of the colonies of the Crown. Hon. Members must remember that they were now dealing with the Consolidated Fund, and he had already had to contend with those who maintained that Colonial Governors ought not to be pensioned out of the Consolidated Fund. The subject was not free from difficulty. It had been considered by several former Governments, as well as by the present—no measure had ever yet been carried—and he believed that the arrangement now proposed was consistent with justice and precedent. He trusted that hon. Members would not press for further concessions. Whatever rule might be laid down, there would be persons outside of it whom it would be desirable to include. The Bill, however, was an important step in the right direction, and he hoped that hon. Members would allow it to pass in its present shape.
§ SIR FITZROY KELLYsaid, he regretted that the Government had confined themselves to so limited a view in reference to these pensions, his own opi- 667 nion being that there should be some relaxation as to the rule for granting pensions only after sixty years of age. It was an age that most persons who had passed the best part of their lives in the colonies were not permitted to attain. He thought, however, he should best serve the cause of those in whom he was interested by inviting his hon. Friend (Mr. Cave) to accede to the recommendation of the Colonial Secretary. He hoped that the right hon. Gentleman would take into his consideration the peculiar circumstances connected with colonial service and the office of Governor, and if he could on some future occasion relax a little the conditions of age or length of service he would benefit a meritorious class of officers. He recommended his hon. Friend not to divide, but to leave the matter in the hands of the Government.
§ MR. CAVEsaid, that after the appeal made to him he would not press his Amendments. He had already stated that he would do nothing to endanger the bill, of which he approved, as an instalment, as far as it went. Thanking, therefore, the right hon. Gentleman for such measure of justice as he had been able to propose, he begged to withdraw his Amendments.
§ Clause agreed to.
§ Clauses 5 to 11, inclusive, agreed to.
§ Clause 12 (Secretary of State to determine when an Officer is in Administration of Government).
§
MR. MOOR moved at end to add—
And for the purposes of this Act the Commission issued under the Great Seal of the Territory of New South Wales for the Government of the district of Port Phillip shall be taken to have constituted the District a Colony.
He said, that his object was to entitle Mr. Latrobe, who had served three years more than the time stipulated to the pension of a Lieutenant Governor, that gentleman having served under the title of Superintendent, and having administered a territory called, not a colony, but a district. He thought if he could show that Mr. Latrobe exercised the same powers that were exercised by a Lieutenant Governor, and that the territory over which he was placed was virtually a colony, that he might appeal with confidence to the Committee to accept his Amendment. About thirty years ago the territory was occupied by a number of persons for their flocks and herds, and held as their individual property. The Governor of Sydney, however, hearing of this, sent down a small military and civil force to
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take possession of the settlement, but finding it impossible to administer affairs there through the medium of a magistrate, he applied to the authorities at home to send out some person to take charge of the government. In 1839 Mr. Latrobe was appointed by the Colonial Office as Superintendent of what was called the "Settlement of Port Phillip, in the colony of New South Wales," and received instructions to proceed to Sydney in the first instance, to receive his commission, for the reason probably that Port Phillip was then a terra incognita to the Colonial Office, and that they had not the means of describing its boundaries. Mr. Latrobe's commission under the great seal of the colony gave him the title of Superintendent, and set out the boundaries of the district over which he was to preside; and he afterwards received a letter to the effect that he was to administer the government with all the powers of a Lieutenant Governor. On the 11th of September, 183S, was received the Colonial Government Gazette for New South Wales, containing a proclamation with reference to Mr. Latrobe's appointment, in which occurred these words:—
Mr. Latrobe will exercise the powers of Lieutenant Governor, and all officers of the Government and others are hereby required to render him obedience and respect accordingly.
In 1842, an act having passed in this country, giving electoral authority to New South Wales, and also to the district of Port Phillip, it became necessary to alter the boundaries of the latter territory, and a new commission was issued to Mr. Latrobe, in which it was expressly stated that he had the power of a Lieutenant Governor. This was also confirmed in 1856, in a memorandum emanating from the Colonial Office, which professed to give a resume of the proceedings of the different Australian colonies from their commencement. That the territory itself was virtually a colony was proved by the boundaries set out in the commission and the proclamation, and by the fact that the Supreme Court established for Port Phillip had a jurisdiction of its own. As he had this moment been informed that the Government was willing to accept his Amendment he would not of course trouble the Mouse with any further observations.
§ MR. CARDWELLsaid, he agreed with much that had fallen from the hon. Gentleman. The truth, however, was that the colony of Victoria was for a long time 669 a district under the colony of New South Wales. It began with small proportions, but grew rapidly great. Mr. Latrobe was not, however, in the position of a Governor, inasmuch as there was no Legislature and no Council in the district. The case was one in which it was not possible to make any general rule, and the Committee, if it agreed to the proposition of the hon. Member, must do so on the understanding that it was to apply to Mr. Latrobe's case alone. He was in the position of Governor for most purposes, and he was a most meritorious man. If the Committee took a liberal view of the case he should be happy to accede to it.
§ SIR JOHN PAKINGTONsaid, he wished to express his great satisfaction at the course taken by the Government. Though Mr. Latrobe only held the position of superintendent, yet in his latter time he had discharged the most difficult duties that could fall upon a Governor. He was practically Governor of Victoria during that period when the advance of the colony exceeded anything in the history of the world; he alluded to the progress caused by the gold discovery. He (Sir John Pakington) held the seals of the Colonial Office at the time, and he could bear testimony to the fact that Mr. Latrobe discharged his duties with great judgment and was well entitled to the consideration of the House.
MR. CHEETHAMsaid, that Mr. Latrobe entered upon the duties of his office in 1839, with a salary of £800 per annum, which was raised in 1846 to £1,500, and further increased in 1851, when the gold discoveries took place, to £2,000, and in 1852 to £5,000. In 1854 he resigned. Mr. Latrohe's successor entered upon his duties with a salary of £10,000, with house, and £5,000 for table money.
§ MR. AUGUSTUS SMITHsaid, he thought a proper reward for this gentleman's meritorious service would be to give him a higher office.
§ MR. CARDWELLsaid, he was afraid Mr. Latrohe's age unfitted him for the public service.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause, as amended, agreed to.
§ Remaining clauses agreed to.
§
MR. LYALL moved the following clause:—
No person shall be incapable of sitting and voting in Parliament or be liable to any penalty for so doing in consequence of the receipt of a pension under this Act.
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He said, that according to the 6th of Anne any person receiving a pension from the Crown during pleasure was liable to a fine of £500 for sitting in Parliament, and was disqualified for so doing; and by an Act in a subsequent reign he was made liable to further penalties. Those Acts were passed in periods of great corruption, and the reasons for them had passed away. It was not fit that persons should be excluded from Parliament in consequence of receiving a pension from the Crown. Colonial Governors would be very useful Members of the House, and he did not see why, when officers of the army and navy were admitted to scats in that House, civil servants should be excluded. He begged, therefore, to move the clause.
§ MR. AYRTONsaid, he opposed the clause, on the ground that this was not the time or the occasion for considering this question which was a very wide one—namely, what ought to be a disqualification for Members of Parliament. At some future time it should come under the consideration of the House. In his opinion it would be necessary rather to restrict than give increased facilities for repeated onslaughts on the Treasury. He was sorry to see such a disposition on the other side to urge Government on every occasion to dilapidate and to waste the resources of the country.
§ MR. CARDWELLsaid, the question, as the hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets had observed, was a very wide one—namely, whether pensioners should sit in the House, and when considered by the House ought to be taken upon its own merits. He saw no reason why a special exemption should be made with respect to those affected by this Bill. It was a fair subject for consideration at a future time, but it was not desirable to consider it in connection with this Bill.
§ Clause negatived.
§ House resumed.
§ Bill reported; as amended, to be considered To-morrow.