[BILL 90.] SECOND READING. (Hansard, 21 June 1865)

§ MR. DENMAN,
in moving the second reading of this Bill, said, that the measure 600 had been drawn up under the auspices of the Newcastle Chamber of Commerce, and had been approved at a large meeting of delegates from the Associated Chambers of Commerce throughout the country. That the subject with which it dealt was one of considerable interest and importance, was shown by the fact that a great many petitions in its favour had been presented from all our principal seaports, with the exception of London and Liverpool, which were not so active in the matter for the good reason that the former possessed a Court of Admiralty which transacted a good deal of business in the way of the settlement of shipping disputes, while the latter also had a court presided over by a most able Judge skilled in mercantile law, by whom those disputes were decided. He had, he might add, received a number of letters on the subject, one or two extracts from which would fully explain the nature of the grievance of which the mercantile shipping interest complained, and for which, by the Bill, it was sought to provide a remedy. In a statement which had been forwarded to him by a considerable shipping firm in Newcastle, they described the decisions of the present courts for the settlement of shipping disputes as being so unsatisfactory, and the cost of the proceedings before them so enormous, that many persons preferred submitting to any amount of injustice rather than bring or defend such actions as the law now stood; referring, in illustration of their statement, to an instance which had come under their own observation in which the question of the damage done to a particular vessel might originally have been settled for £6, had ended, after considerable litigation, in the ship having been sold for £600 and £700, which amount had, no doubt, been completely absorbed in costs. He had also a communication from a firm of eminent ship and insurance brokers in London, in which they said that a constantly increasing number of shipping disputes was being settled by unprofessional persons, owing to the difficulties and expense connected with the present system. Many persons, they went on to state, who suffered injury quietly bore their loss rather than make any attempt to obtain redress. The existence of such a state of things was naturally looked upon by the shipping interest as a grievance, while they also complained that the Judges by whom the mercantile law of the country was administered were apt very often to pronounce a 601 decision upon written documents, acting upon their own view of the provisions which those documents contained, without any special knowledge of mercantile terms or usages. The subject, no doubt, was difficult to deal with; but he could not accept any discredit for having brought forward this measure at so late a period of the Session; for he had put down the second reading on the notice paper several times, and had been twice counted out. It was not, therefore, his fault that the measure had not been pressed on the notice of the House earlier. Having stated the grievances which were felt in regard to this subject, he would briefly inform the House what the remedies for those grievances were which the Bill provided. It was, in the first place, proposed that the measure should be applied to certain districts into which for that purpose the country would be portioned out, and which should include our great shipping ports, and each of which should contain one or more County Court district. The Bill further provided that courts should be constituted in those districts, and that they should consist of one President and Assessors; the President to be appointed by the Lord Chancellor, and to be selected from persons holding the office of County Court Judge, Commissioner or Registrar of the Court of Bankruptcy, or stipendiary magistrate. The Assessors might be persons in business as merchants, manufacturers, or shipowners, who would be chosen in rotation for the duty by the town council of the borough within which the sittings of the Court are appointed to be held. These Assessors it was not proposed by the Bill to remunerate, but then they would be allowed certain privileges—such as exemption from serving on juries—but he thought the office would be considered so highly honourable that there would be no difficulty in finding gentlemen to act gratuitously. The advantage of the selection of such a class of persons as Assessors would be that the Judge would have persons experienced in business in the district in which the dispute might happen to arise to assist him in construing the written documents to which he had already referred. There would be an appeal from the Courts constituted under the Bill in those cases in which the sum involved was above a certain amount; and the result of the operation of the measure, he believed, would be cheap and speedy decisions. He regretted that he had been unable to bring the Bill on for second reading at an earlier period 602 of the Session. If he could have done so he should have moved that it should be referred to a Select Committee. As it was, he hoped he should hear from the Government that they were prepared to deal with the subject, and should for the present content himself with moving the second reading pro formâ.

MR. HEADLAM
said, he could coroborate the statement of his hon. and learned Friend, that the Bill had originated with the Newcastle Chamber of Commerce, where the evils it sought to remedy were much felt, and had received the approval of the Associated Chambers of Commerce. Under all the circumstances of the case he hoped his right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade would give his serious attention to the subject, with a view of remedying the evils complained of.

§ MR. MILNER GIBSON
admitted that the subject was one which was deserving of the fullest consideration of the Board of Trade—he was also prepared to grant that it was important technical knowledge should be at the command of a Judge who had to come to a decision on cases in which such knowledge was requisite; but, then, he was not of opinion that the Judge ought necessarily to be a man who had followed the calling out of which such cases arose. The Assessors who were to be appointed under the Bill were, he found, to have votes; so that they would, to all intents and purposes, be Judges in a cause in which, independent of other considerations, they might, as manufacturers and traders chosen by the Town Council of the borough nearest to the place at which the Court sat, have a personal interest. This, he thought, involved a principle which could not be admitted. He had no doubt that there was under the present system great delay as well as expense in dealing with the cases which arose, and it was a question deserving of consideration whether a Judge of the Court of Admiralty should not go circuit, and be assisted by Assessors, rather than that novel local courts should be established. It would, for instance, hardly be desirable to refer for decision to a court in which shipowners might have a preponderating influence the question of wages; which could, he thought, be more satisfactorily dealt with by the magistrates on the spot. 603 Nor was he, he might add, quite sure that the parties to an action would be relieved to any great extent from expense under the operation of the Bill, inasmuch as it would almost invariably happen that whenever a collision between vessels occurred those interested in the subsequent proceedings would be found to be residing at a distance from the scene of the occurrence. If, however, his hon. and learned Friend would allow the matter to rest for the present Session he would undertake that it should receive, during the recess, the fullest consideration, and possibly the Government might be able to propose some satisfactory measure on the subject.

MR. HENLEY
thought the President of the Board of Trade had given very satisfactory reasons why the House should not proceed further with the measure. It was probable that owing to the extension of our shipping operations the number of disputes in question had considerably increased, and it was of course desirable that those disputes should be settled as expeditiously and as inexpensively as possible. He did not think, however, that the Court proposed by the Bill would form a satisfactory tribunal. The Court was to consist of a Judge and four or five gentlemen who were to act as his Assessors; but they were all to have an equal voice in deciding both questions of law and questions of fact. The sound principle was that the Judge should lay down the law, and the juries decide as to the fact. Nor did he think that the Admiralty Court was so very popular that the establishment of an unlimited number of small Admiralty Courts, as was proposed, would be regarded by the country in the light of a blessing. He was, however, glad that the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade intended to turn his attention to the subject, for it was deserving of consideration whether local courts might not be constituted with power to deal with cases in which the amount involved was under £50. Many of them would probably be better settled by means of arbitration than by any other mode.

THE SOLICITOR GENERAL
said, that though he should be disposed to support any measure which had for its object the localizing and cheapening actions in shipping cases, he regarded the tribunals which it was proposed under the Bill to constitute as altogether novel, combining together as they would the duties of Judge and jury. To the establishment of such 604 tribunals, therefore, he would not give his assent, while he could assure his hon. and learned Friend the Member for Tiverton that the Government were anxious to afford every facility to meet the views of the promoters of the Bill.

§ MR. J. B. MOORE
said, he believed that the establishment of a speedy mode of settling those suits was extremely desirable, and he thought their thanks were due to the hon. and learned Gentleman who had introduced the Bill, although it might not be expedient to pass it in its present form.

§ MR. CAVE
said, there was no doubt that some such Bill as that was demanded by the mercantile and shipping community of this country. The measure might, he believed, be somewhat better framed, but it appeared to him that its principle was perfectly correct—namely, the principle that a mixed tribunal, consisting of both legal and commercial gentlemen, should be established for the settlement of these cases. He thought, however, that the Court should be presided over by a lawyer. Legal education was essential. He knew an instance of a practical man, as the term was, being arbitrator in a shipping case, and re-opening matters of fact which had been agreed upon on both sides. On the other hand there was as much hard swearing in shipping, especially in runniug down cases, as in horse cases, and the presence of nautical men as assessors with diagrams, who could cross-examine witnesses, as to the wind, tides, and tack the ships were on when the collision occurred, would be very useful. The Bill was crude and imperfect, but might be the precursor of a really useful measure.