HC Deb 20 June 1865 vol 180 cc527-9

Considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

Resolution moved, That provision be made for the payment out of the Consolidated Fund of Great Britain and Ireland of the sum of Three Hundred Pounds per annum to each of the Judges of the County Courts, in addition to their present salary.—(Mr. Peel.)

MR. AUGUSTUS SMITH

objected to the proposed increase, and said, it had been found by a Return that the Judges whose salary had been raised to £1,500 had not been the most deserving so far as their duties were concerned. There were nineteen Judges who sat in their Courts only from 150 to 200 days in the year, and thirty-five who sat only from 100 to 150, and one who actually did not sit 100 days. If this increase in the salary should be made, those holding other legal appointments of a similar character would be making application to be placed on the same footing. He feared also that the measure would be detrimental to the legal profession itself.

MR. LONGFIELD

regretted that the old principle of fees had not been retained. The duties of the Judges varied considerably—some Judges would be getting £300 a year for hearing ten extra cases, while others would have perhaps 300 additional cases. The annual sum of £18,000 would be required to increase the salaries £300 each.

MR. PEEL

said, it was anticipated that the new fees arising out of the equity jurisdiction would fully cover the additional charge on the Consolidated Fund. Paying the Judges by fees was most objectionable. In the first instance, the County Court Judges were paid by fees; but it was soon found necessary to substitute salaries. It was proposed by this Bill to have no new salaries exceeding £1,500 a year; but only to augment the existing salaries when the Judges had imposed on them the new duty of judging in equity.

MR. AYRTON

hoped it would be clearly understood that if hereafter bankruptcy jurisdiction should be given to the County Court Judges, this would not involve another increase of salary.

MR. HENLEY

thought the principle of paying a Judge by salary and not by fees a sound one. The County Court Judges generally (there were exceptions in which it was more) received £1,200 a year, and it was proposed to increase their salaries by one-fourth. Had they at present one-fourth of their time idle? If not, how would the public receive a benefit for the increased pay? At present our gaols were lumbered up by County Court prisoners, sent under what was called penal imprisonment. When the new equitable jurisdiction was given to the County Court Judges, ought there not to be some provision against the enlargement of this penal imprisonment? He trusted that the Secretary of State for the Home Department would consider the subject.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said, that the conclusion drawn by the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Henley) from the Bill—namely, that the County Court Judges were not employed more than three fourths of their time, was a good way from the truth. A large amount of their time was employed in travelling from place to place, and in opening and closing their Courts. It was now proposed to make a considerable addition to their duty, which, however, he believed they might perfectly well undertake. As to the inquiry whether this proposal implied that there was to be a fresh increase of salary whenever new duties were added, he felt bound to say that in his opinion the scale of pay in the Civil Service was liberal, and in the legal profession more than liberal—it was large, very large. This proposal must be taken with reference to that scale in general, and not as an isolated scheme, and he believed it was equitable.

SIR COLMAN O'LOGHLEN

drew attention to the fact that the County Courts of England cost the enormous sum of £240,000, and Scotland cost £100,000, while those of Ireland, whose Judges had a more extended jurisdiction, only cost £15,000, and part of that was recouped by a stamp duty. A small stamp duty on every case ought to be charged on the English business.

MR. HENLEY

was inclined to think what had fallen from the Chancellor of the Exchequer had strengthened rather than weakened what he had suggested. Deducting the time of travelling and of opening and closing Courts, which would remain the same, it would be an increase of one-third instead of one-fourth.

MR. HARVEY LEWIS

said, the salaries would not be too large if they were to get the best men.

Motion agreed to.

Resolved, That provision be made for the payment out of the Consolidated Fund of Great Britain and Ireland of the sum of Three Hundred Pounds per annum to each of the Judges of the County Courts, in addition to their present salary.

House resumed.

Resolution to be reported Tomorrow.