HC Deb 09 June 1865 vol 179 cc1328-35

Order for Committee read.

Bill considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

Clauses 1 to 14, inclusive, agreed to.

Clause 15 (Superannuation of Officers.)

SIR MINTO FARQUHAR

said, he wished to recognize the principle, that after a service for a certain period, and at a certain age, officers should be entitled to have their claims to superannuation considered by the visiting magistrates. He therefore proposed, that after the word "prison" in line 31, there should be inserted "has been an officer for not less than twenty years, and not less than fifty years of age." The clause, as he proposed to amend it, would be precisely similar to a clause in the Lunatic Asylums' Acts.

SIR GEORGE GREY

said, that the officers employed under the Lunacy Act were men of peculiar qualifications, and there was a special recommendation that they should be put on a better footing with regard to superannuation than any other class. If the Amendment were adopted a claim would be made to extend the same terms to the officers of convict prisons, and then to other officers of the Civil Service. The clause had been very carefully considered by the Select Committee, and he thought it would be undesirable to make the change in it that was proposed by the hon. Baronet. If, however, a provision of this kind were to be inserted in the Bill, fifty years was too early an age at which to entitle an officer to an allowance. If the word "sixty" were substituted for "fifty" no great inconvenience would arise from the adoption of the Amendment, and he would not oppose it, A man of fifty years of age might be well able to continue to discharge his duty, and he did not see why he should be superannuated at that age. The age for superannuation under the Police Act was sixty.

MR. HENLEY

said, that the clause had been fully considered by the Select Committee, and was almost unanimously agreed to. He would not object to superannuation at sixty, but should prefer the clause as it stood.

SIR MINTO FARQUHAR

would accept the suggestion of the Home Secretary.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 16 to 18, inclusive, agreed to.

Clause 19 (Requisitions of Act as to Hard Labour.)

MR. MITFORD

said, that in many small prisons some of the prisoners were employed as cooks and nurses. Would not this be properly considered as "bodily labour" of the second class?

SIR GEORGE GREY

did not think that employment either as cooks or nurses came under the description of hard labour. Baking really was hard labour, and might be so considered. The Select Committee were of opinion that it was undesirable to exempt prisoners from some description of hard labour when hard labour formed a portion of the sentence. There were always hard labour prisoners unable to do hard work, and these might be employed in cooking and nursing.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 20 agreed to.

Clause 21 (Rules in addition to Regulations in Schedule.)

MR. BARROW

inquired whether the rules to be made by the justices would, after this Bill passed, sufficiently empower the governors of prisons to alter the diet as a mode of punishment in the case of mild offenders.

SIR GEORGE GREY

believed that the governor exercised that power at present. His power of punishing for certain offences by close confinement was limited to three days; but in the case of trifling punishments he clearly would have the same power that he had at present under the direction and control of the justices.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 22 (Inspectors of Prisons to leave a Minute of Observations.)

SIR GEORGE GREY

said, that the object of this clause was a very desirable one—namely, that when an Inspector examined a prison and found defects in it, these defects should not be kept concealed from the immediate notice of the visiting justices until the annual Report had been laid before Parliament. The clause, therefore, provided that when an Inspector found any irregularities to exist in a prison, he should make a report on the subject to the visiting justices; but as it might be inconvenient to oblige an Inspector on every occasion of this kind to make a report, he proposed to amend the clause by the insertion of words enabling the Inspector to call attention by letter addressed to the visiting justices to any irregularities that he observed to exist in prisons, so that they might take measures for remedying them. He proposed, therefore, to leave out the words "make a report on the state of the prisons," and insert the words "call their attention to any irregularity he may have observed."

MR. HENLEY

could not see a great difference between "making a report," as it stood in the clause, and "calling attention," according to the Amendment. Remarks of Prison Inspectors ought not to be made carelessly or loosely, and when made, on mature consideration, they ought to be matter of record.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 23 to 41, inclusive, agreed to.

Clause 42 (Allowance to discharged Prisoners.)

MR. MUNDY

said, he should desire to see the principle of this clause still further extended. It was a subject of just complaint that when a prisoner was discharged from prison he was almost obliged to relapse into crime, because he had no means of obtaining a subsistence. He would grant, therefore, to every prisoner, on leav- ing prison, a certain proportion of the earnings he made during his incarceration, and thus give him a chance, if he chose to do so, of returning to an honest course of life. In many foreign prisons the principle had been adopted, and it had been stated that in the Canton de Vaud, in Switzerland, the prisoners on being discharged from them received as much as two-thirds of their earnings.

SIR BALDWIN LEIGHTON

would like to know how the earnings of each prisoner were to be ascertained and calculated? In scarcely one gaol that he knew were there any real earnings. He believed there were charities in most gaols from which prisoners might be assisted with small sums on their discharge.

SIR GEORGE GREY

said, that this was no new enactment, but was copied from an existing Act. It had not been long in operation, but it was working well, and it would be undesirable to alter or repeal it without further experience of its operation.

MR. MUNDY

How far can you go beyond £2 at present?

SIR GEORGE GREY

You cannot go beyond £2 at all.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 43 to 52, inclusive, agreed to.

Clause 53 (Appointment of Visiting Justices.)

SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE

asked what was the reason of limiting the number of visiting justices to twelve. In the larger districts there would be an advantage in having a greater number than twelve. He moved to leave out the words "not exceeding twelve."

SIR GEORGE GREY

said, that the majority of the Select Committee were favourable to this limitation of the number of visiting justices, in the belief that the smaller the number the greater the responsibility. For himself, he rather doubted the expediency of the limit to any particular number.

COLONEL STUART

suggested the substitution of "eighteen" for "twelve."

MR. HENLEY

thought it would be much better to leave the number open, and let each county do as it thought best.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause agreed to.

Remaining clauses agreed to.

Schedule 1. (Regulations for Government of Prisons.) Section 29. "The hair of a female prisoner shall not be cut without her consent, except on account of vermin or dirt, or when the surgeon deems it requisite on the ground of health; and the hair of male prisoners shall not be cut closer than may be necessary for the purpose of health and cleanliness.

MR. MUNDY

said, that female prisoners were sometimes so disorderly that it was necessary the visiting justices should have the power of cutting off their hair as a punishment. He should not wish to see it carried out; but where female prisoners set the authority of the prison officers at defiance, and destroyed their clothes and everything they could lay their hands upon, the threat of cutting off their hair might be usefully held over them in terrorem. He moved, as an Amendment, after the word "health," to insert "or under the sanction of the visiting justices as a punishment in extreme cases."

Amendment proposed, after the word "health," to insert the words "or under the sanction of the visiting justices as a punishment in cases of refractory conduct in prison."—(Mr. Mundy.)

SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE

said, it occasionally happened that the visiting justices had a class of female prisoners on their hands who were very difficult to deal with. When they were disorderly the justices could not inflict corporal punishment, and the only punishments they could carry out were a reduction of diet and confinement in a dark cell. The punishment of cutting off their hair was the most effective of all, and he should vote for the Amendment.

MR. BRISCOE

said, that to cut off the hair of a female prisoner was the most cruel and severe punishment that could be inflicted on a woman. He should divide the House against the Amendment.

MR. ADDERLEY

believed that this punishment was one which it was necessary the justices should possess in certain cases.

MR. BARROW

, from his experience as a visiting justice, would vote for the Amendment. He knew a case in which a profligate woman was confined in prison who defied the authority of the gaolers, and sang obscene songs at the top of her voice for a couple of days. He believed that the fear of this punishment was necessary to deter women of that class from such excesses.

SIR BALDWIN LEIGHTON

said, that the present punishment for disorderly female prisoners was quite insufficient. In the prison in his county a strong, handsome girl of twenty was confined. She had previously been in Chester and two or three other prisons, and she at length came to Millbank, and her story was given in the Revelations of a Prison Matron. This girl attacked the female officers of his (Sir Baldwin Leighton's) county prison, tore down the grate and a portion of the walls, and the visiting justices were at their wits' end to know what to do with her. The matron was obliged to keep her bed for two days in consequence of her violence, and the girl was fourteen days in irons before she would bog anybody's pardon. She knew they could not cut off her hair, but if that punishment could have been inflicted it would not have been necessary to handcuff her—the threat would have been enough. In another case in his county a woman told the matron she knew they could not flog her. The matron was about to leave the prison, not for any fault, but because she was going to be married. What she did was perfectly illegal, but it was quite effectual—she went into the woman's cell, and herself gave her an exceedingly sound whipping, and the woman was never disorderly again. If the visiting justices could have cut off these women's hair the threat would have been enough, and they would not have had to punish either of them.

SIR GEORGE GREY

said, that the Amendment gave the power in "extreme cases." This was vague, and he doubted, moreover, whether it would be a deterrent. He had no great objection, however, to give the power to the visiting justices if the offence were more exactly defined.

MR. HENLEY

said, that the power of cutting off women's hair used to be exercised in prisons and workhouses, but it had very properly been given up. In some ill-managed prisons every case would be an "extreme case," and the women would all be docked. This would be an act of the greatest cruelty. It was a heavier punishment than could be now inflicted on a woman. Half of the women in gaol would rather have twelve months' imprisonment than have their hair cut. He would vote for the clause as it stood.

MR. HUNT

said, he was desirous that the justices should have the power of inflicting the punishment; but, at the same time, he should not like to see it done. He suggested that instead of "extreme cases" the words of the Amendment should run "in cases of refractory conduct in prisons."

MR. MUNDY

said, he would accept the suggestion of his hon. Friend.

Question put, "That those words be there inserted."

The Committee divided:—Ayes 22; Noes 39: Majority 17.

MR. MUNDY moved an Amendment to the effect that the hair of no boy should be cut close when imprisoned for a first offence. He mentioned an instance in which a boy who had had his hair so cut was unable from that circumstance to get employment after he left prison.

MR. WRIGHTSON

said, that the power of cutting off the hair of lads was very useful. Sometimes, when they obstinately refused to pay small fines, they gave way and paid the money as soon as the barber came into the room.

MR. MUNDY

objected to cutting off the hair of any boy who might be imprisoned for a first offence. It prevented a lad from getting employment.

SIR GEORGE GREY

said, that the object of cutting the hair close was cleanliness, and that very much the same thing was done in the army.

Amendment negatived.

Section agreed to.

Section 34 (Regulations as to Hard Labour of the First Class.)

MR. CAVE

pointed out that in small gaols there would be no one available for nursing and cooking except prisoners sentenced to hard labour. He submitted that well-conducted prisoners sentenced to hard labour of the second class might be employed in the duties of nursing and cooking, or else the smaller gaols would be without nurses and cooks. He entirely agreed with the hon. Member for Midhurst (Mr. Mitford) on this point, and hoped the Government would concede it.

SIR GEORGE GREY

thought it would be better that the hon. Gentleman should give notice of his Amendment, that the Members of the Select Committee might have an opportunity of stating the grounds on which they framed the regulations as they stand in the Schedule.

MR. CAVE

said, he would bring up a clause on the Report.

Section agreed to.

Clause 47 (Ministers to visit Prisons under certain Restrictions.)

MR. MUNDY moved to leave out "shall" and insert "may."

SIR GEORGE GREY

could not agree to leave the matter to the discretion of the justices. The clause took away the necessity of a special request in each case.

SIR WILLIAM JOLLIFFE

wished to leave the justices no discretion in such a matter, so that no prisoner need be excluded from religious instruction.

MR. BARROW

said, that in his county they got hold of a London burglar who at first declared himself to be a member of the Established Church, and then, wishing to give the authorities some trouble, represented that he was a Roman Catholic.

SIR GEORGE GREY

said, that under this Bill the statement made by a prisoner on entering a gaol as to his religious persuasion would be taken down, and would hold good during his term of imprisonment.

Remainder of the schedule, with verbal amendments, agreed to.

Schedules 2 and 3 agreed to.

House resumed.

Bill reported; as amended, to be considered on Monday next.