HC Deb 08 June 1865 vol 179 cc1271-80

(In the Committee.)

(1.) Question [June 2] again proposed, That a sum, not exceeding £13,336 be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1866, for the Expenses of the National Gallery, including the purchase of Pictures.

MR. AUGUSTUS SMITH

said, he wished to ask, whether it was the intention of Her Majesty's Government to propose an Estimate this year for the enlargement of the National Gallery, and if the right hon. Gentleman the First Commissioner of Works would favour the Committee with an outline of his proposed plan.

MR. COWPER

said, the Estimates were in preparation, and he hoped he should be able to lay them on the table of the House in a few days. It was proposed to purchase the ground in the rear of the present building, at present occupied by the workhouse and the parochial schools belonging to St. Martin's-in-the-Fields, and also Archbishop Tenison's school. He had been in communication with the vestry, and he found that they were willing to dispose of the workhouse and parish schools to the Government upon condition that they should receive such a sum of money as would enable them to erect another workhouse in the suburbs, and provide within the parish a casual ward and parochial offices. The Trustees of Archbishop Tenison's schools were also willing to dispose of their property provided means were given them to obtain another school in the parish. And a similar arrangement would have to be made with regard to the parochial schools. It would therefore be his duty to submit to the House a proposal for the purchase of this property, to be laid out as required for the enlargement of the National Gallery from time to time, so as to give the necessary accommodation. That was the only course open for the House to adopt with the view of extending the accommodation. Some time must, however, elapse, before the Royal Academy would be able to obtain a building to which they could transfer their pictures, schools, and exhibitions. When they vacated the apartments they at present occupied the building would be wholly occupied by the National Gallery; but the addition of those rooms to the National Gallery would not give sufficient space for the exhibition and classification of all the pictures by ancient masters, and certainly not for the works of the British School, which were now in South Kensington Museum, and therefore it would be necessary to make an addition to the present building. He hoped the hon. Member would consider what he had said sufficient, without calling upon him to enter into an explanation of what did not relate to the Vote then before the Committee.

MR. KINNAIRD

said, he wished to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether it was his intention, in consequence of the numerous petitions that had been presented upon the subject, to open the National Galley three evenings in the week, in order that the labouring portion of the metropolis might have an opportunity of inspecting the works of art contained therein. The plan had been tried on particular occasions with perfect success, and was, in fact, adopted in the South Kensington Museum, without the slightest damage having occurred, he believed, to the pictures. Numerous petitions had been already presented in favour of opening the National Gallery three times a week, and the petitions were greatly on the increase. It was clear that the working classes could not visit these collections during the day, and thus they failed to exercise the elevating and beneficial influence upon the mass of the community which they were designed to promote, and which alone entitled them to the name of national collections. He held in his hand a list of resolutions in favour of thus opening these collections, agreed to in one part of London alone. It comprised 7 societies of young men, consisting of 655 members; 3 friendly societies, with 726 members; 13 building societies, with 5,130 members; 2 Christian congregations, of 1,700 persons; 2 bodies of teachers in schools, 61 in number; 12 temperance societies, registering 1,898 persons; 22 public meetings, attended by 9,003 persons; and the officers of a college of 93 students; altogether representing 62 associations and meetings, and 19,266 persons. These had unanimously petitioned Parliament in favour of the movement. He could not see any valid objection to it; for wherever it had been tried it had been found successful, and he earnestly pressed upon his right hon. Friend not to lose this opportunity of at all events assuring the country that this matter should receive the serious and earnest consideration of those who had charge of our national collections. The Royal Academy was opened at night by gaslight, without any difficulty, and without injury to the paintings, at a comparatively small expense. As the national institutions were supported out of the taxes of the people, he thought that every facility should be given to enable them to visit them. He believed it was the hearty wish of the Chancellor of the Exchequer and of other Members of the Government that these national collections should be opened at night, as it was likely to have an elevating and beneficial effect upon the tastes of the working classes.

LORD JOHN MANNERS

said, he wished to ask, as some time would necessarily elapse before the could provide a new site and building, if he was to understand, from what the right hon. Gen-leman the First Commissioner of Works had said, that her Majesty's Government did not intend to offer the ground at Burlington House for the Royal Academy?

MR. COWPER

said, that a proposal had been made by the Government to the Royal Academy, that if they pleased to apply for a site at Burlington House the Government would be prepared to grant it to them. There had not been time as yet to ascertain the intention of the Royal Academy, but in any event a considerable time must necessarily elapse before they could vacate the National Gallery. With reference to opening the national collections three times a week, he quite agreed with his hon. Friend that a great portion of the inhabitants of the metropolis were so busy all day that they could not find time to see the public exhibitions except at night, and, further, that many of the persons for whom these collections were especially provided were just the people who were unable to benefit by them at present. So that he entirely went along with his hon. Friend, on the principle that every public exhibition should be, so far as was feasible and safe, opened in the evening. With regard, however, to the National Gallery, it was in the hands of trustees, who were under a very heavy responsibility for the preservation of works of art so immensely valuable, and which could not possibly be replaced if they were destroyed. It was necessary for the trustees to consider what danger might arise from the use of gas in lighting up the National Gallery for evening exhibition, and they all knew that the mere introduction of gas increased the risk of fire. He would not say that very great precautions might not be used so as, by the application of modern science, to reduce the danger to a minimum, but he must express his opinion that it was not desirable to introduce gas into the present building in Trafalgar Square. If, however, a new building were erected expressly for the purpose of enabling night exhibitions to take place, it could be made fireproof, and the gas might be so introduced as to reduce the risk to a minimum. Another subject which required consideration was the fact that nothing was more deleterious to pictures and other objects of exhibition than the effluvia from gas. On the other hand, great improvements had been made in ventilation, and it was possible in a new building to carry off all the noxious effluvia from gas. It was, however, doubtful whether arrangements could be made for this purpose in the present building, and the pictures would incur very considerable risk if gas were introduced. It would be desirable that buildings erected in future for these purposes should be so constructed as to enable the public to see the national collections in the evening as well as during the day.

MR. MITFORD

said, he wished to ask the right hon. Gentleman, whether the trustees could not open the National Gallery on the days when it was now closed, at a charge of 6d. or 1s. each person. The Gallery was open to the public on four days in the week, and to students and copiers exclusively on the remaining two days. This was a great inconvenience to the public, which it would be desirable to remedy if possible. It might be objected that an additional expense would be incurred in providing policemen to watch the pictures; but, as some persons must be in attendance to look after them at present, the additional expense would be very small, and would be almost, if not quite, covered by the fees paid by the public. Another objection might be that the persons admitted on payment might interfere with the students. It appeared, however, that not more than thirty-eight students were at work on an average in copying pictures, and they were distributed in five or six rooms. The fee would deter all but real lovers of art from entering the building, while it would give an opportunity to many persons to enjoy the pictures quietly. The students would have cause to rejoice rather than otherwise that such persons were admitted while they were at work, because the lovers of art would often buy a good copy which they might see in progress. It was an anomaly that the public should lay out a large sum of money for a collection, and that they should then be shut out of it for two days a week.

SIR WILLIAM FRASER

said, he trusted that due provision would he made in any new building for pictures which might be bequeathed to the nation. He believed that a large number of bequests might be made to the country if a gallery of adequate dimensions were built to receive them. Persons who might be induced to leave their pictures to the nation were now deterred by the apprehension that they would be thrust into some hole or corner where no one could see them.

MR. AUGUSTUS SMITH

said, that the statement of the First Commissioner of Works was satisfactory in one respect—namely, that the National Gallery would remain where it is. It also appeared that the Royal Academy would have to go elsewhere, and that was equally satisfactory. He observed an item of £8,000 for the purchase of pictures; but there was also an item of £9,548 for three balances which were stated to be surrendered to the Exchequer. Was the National Gallery to have those balances in addition to the Vote of £8,000? There was a heavy item for the travelling agency last year, an expense of £2,000 having been incurred in the purchase of pictures, while the pictures themselves only cost £3,000.

THE CHANCELLOR, OF THE EXCHEQUER

said, that nothing would be more inexpedient than to lay out every year the sum of £8,000 voted by Parliament for the purchase of pictures, whether works of art of sufficient merit presented themselves or not. The question then arose whether this balance should be kept in the hands of the Department or surrendered to the Exchequer, like the other balances. It was always undesirable to make an exception to a sound general rule, and if that exception were justified in the present instance it might be made the pretext for similar claims from other departments. It was therefore thought better that the balances should be surrendered to the Exchequer, and that the Treasury should be willing, on any fair case being made out, to ask the House to re-vote the money.

Question put, and agreed to.

(2.) £1,650, British Historical Portrait Gallery.

MR. WALPOLE

said, he wished to know whether in the new buildings to be added to the National Gallery it was contemplated to devote any building for the proper exhibition of the national portraits. No one could properly see them where they now were, and as the number who wished to do so was increasing every year it became a matter of importance that they should be better placed. The pictures were only open for exhibition on a certain number of days, and then only for a limited number of hours. Lately they had been open up to five o'clock, and that was a great convenience. Would the right hon. Gentleman see whether better accommodation for the pictures and increased facilities for the public could not be afforded for a collection which was likely to form a very good historical gallery?

MR. COWPER

said, he agreed that it was important the collection of national portraits should be better exhibited. The present accommodation was only temporary. It was fully intended that when the new gallery was erected a proper place should be found for the exhibition of these portraits. No doubt a really good gallery ought to be made for them. With regard to the hours during which the portraits were now exhibited trustees would be called upon to consider the suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman.

MR. CAVENDISH BENTINCK

said, he wished to know whether the Committee were to understand that these portraits were not to be sent to South Kensington.

MR. COWPER

said, there was a wonderful alarm on the part of some hon. Members at the words "South Kensington." Nothing had yet been decided on the subject.

Vote agreed to.

(3.) £4,059, to complete the sum for Magnetic and Meteorological Observations.

SIR WILLIAM FRASER

said, he understood that a railway was projected which it was supposed would interfere with the scientific labours carried on at Greenwich Observatory. It was of the greatest importance not only to this country, hut also to the world, that nothing should be done to interfere with the delicate observations in course of operation there. It was obvious that the running of railway trains near the Observatory would be injurious, and he trusted that the Government would prevent any such interference.

MR. WHITE

said, he wished for some explanation of the item of £500 for a meteorological survey in the West Indies. This was a yearly grant. What progress had been made, and how long was it to last?

MR. PEEL

said, that the West Indies paid one-half of these expenses and all incidental expenses. There were a great many islands, and he thought these gentlemen would be occupied for some time to come.

MR. MILNER GIBSON

said, that the effect of a railway upon Greenwich Observatory was for the consideration of the Admiralty, not of the Board of Trade.

MR. COWPER

said, that it was true a railway proposed to go by a tunnel under Greenwich Park. The Admiralty objected on the ground of injury to the Observatory, and the promoters had accordingly been told that the consent of the Crown could not be given. It was open to the promoters to show that the railway could pass under the Park without injury to the Observatory, but as yet they had not succeeded in doing so.

MR. WHITE

said, he thought that there ought to be some report made to Parliament as to the progress of the meteorological survey in the West Indies.

MR. PEEL

said, that before the survey was commenced a Parliamentary Report was laid on the table giving a full account of the objects of the survey.

MR. AUGUSTUS SMITH

said, he had to complain of the diversity of authorities having control over this Vote. Some items were under the Admiralty and others under the Board of Trade. He wished to know whether the Board of Trade was going on prophesying the weather for the next two days. He believed that the head of that department was at present vacant. Was it the intention of the Government to fill it up? There were Returns presented to the House last year, showing that the prophecies were once right, twice wrong. Last Tuesday week what did the Board of Trade prophesy with regard to the weather? Wind SE to SSW, fresh to moderate. What was the fact? The wind did not blow from those quarters; hut a tremendous gale, involving great destruction of property, swept across the north of England. In point of fact, almost all the great storms came before the warning signals; and last Tuesday week the warning "to look out for rough weather," followed the arrival of the gale. He hoped that a gentleman would be placed at the head of the department of high scientific attainments.

MR. MILNER GIBSON

said, his hon. Friend had underrated the reputation which the late Admiral Fitzroy enjoyed in the scientific world. He (Mr. Milner Gibson) was only speaking the opinion of those best qualified to give one that the late admiral did a great service in perfecting—in carrying forward—the science of meteorology; and not only had his efforts been acknowledged by scientific men in this country, but they had also been recognized by some of the ablest scientific men in France. He would explain how it was the Board of Trade had to do with this question. Some years ago there was a congress at Brussels, composed of representatives of the principal maritime powers, who decided that it was desirable that ocean statistics should be collected in order that navigators might know what to expect, as it were, in different latitudes and longitudes at different seasons of the year, and thus be assisted in the long voyages round the globe. The English Government agreed to co-operate with France, the United States, and other Governments, in supplying their quota of information and collecting the ocean statistics. It was necessary to supply the merchant vessels with forms to fill up in the course of their voyages, and which were, in fact, to be the means of collecting these statistics; and the Board of Trade being most in connection with those vessels, they were naturally employed to distribute these forms. The collection of these statistics went on for some time, but it had since been very much given up, and they had got into another system, which was not originally contemplated, of predicting—making forecasts—of the weather, and attempting to give a practical application to what was called the science of meteoro- logy. This had been done very much by Admiral Fitzroy himself, but always with the concurrence of this House and of the Royal Society. Since the death of Admiral Fitzroy he had thought it to be his duty, seeing the position of the office, that the whole state of things had been abandoned and a new one substituted—to take the advice of the Royal Society as to what would be the best course to pursue, and whether the science of meteorology was in a condition to justify the Government in proposing Votes of money for the continuance of these weather forecasts. Meanwhile he asked for the usual Votes; and if it should appear to be desirable to abandon the present system, that money would not be expended. At present the duty was discharged by Mr. Babington, who was the late admiral's chief assistant; and he hoped that the money would be voted this year as usual.

MR. DARBY GRIFFITH

said, he observed that there was a considerable item—£3,000—for telegrams, and wished to know whether the money was expended for telegrams indicating the weather in different parts of this country only, or all over Europe. The Department appeared to have become more practical than scientific.

MR. MILNER GIBSON

said, that the Government paid for all the telegrams sent by them to different parts of the United Kingdom and to foreign countries, but, no doubt, a certain portion of expense in connection with this matter was defrayed by foreign Governments.

MR. HENLEY

said, he wished to ask whether he correctly understood the right hon. Gentleman to say that the collection of statistics by merchant ships was given up. As a collection of facts—rather than of prophecies—he thought they might have been made the foundation of some useful object. The expenditure for telegrams by this Department was enormously large, as large as the sum expended for telegrams by the Foreign Office. He hoped the matter would receive the consideration of the Government.

MR. MILNER GIBSON

said, that the collection of the Returns was not absolutely given up, but was very much diminished.

Vote agreed to.

(4.) £5,000, Universal Exhibition at Paris.

(5.) £500, Royal Geographical Society.

(6.) £1,000, Royal Society.

(7.) £500, Royal Academy of Music.

MR. THOMSON HANKEY

said, he wished to ask where the Royal Academy of Music was—["Hanover Square!"]—and who managed it?

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said, his hon. Friend might rest assured that if the object was one fit to be promoted by a public grant at all the persons in whose hands the grant was placed were perfectly competent to administer it. One of the Governors was Sir George Clerk, formerly a Member of the House, as good a man of business as ever sat in the House, an enthusiastic lover of music, and a faithful friend and patron of the Institution. The Institution might be described as a normal school of music. It was perfectly open, and therefore worthy of public support. Its object was to teach teachers, and the effect of the moderate aid afforded by the House had been to give a considerable stimulus to voluntary exertion, and cause a large annual addition to private subscriptions. This, indeed, was made a condition of the grant.

MR. DARBY GRIFFITH

said, there were many other societies quite as meritorious as this which received no grant of public money. On some future occasion the Committee might be called on to vote grants for the Antiquarian, Geological, Anthropological and Entomological Societies. The grants were not made on principle, but pro re natâ, as the occasion arose.

Vote agreed to.